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What do I expect from IET – Community - France & Paris.

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Firstly who are the IET Fr MIET members?

I joined this PEI in 1980 from Grenoble. I was on substantive leave from MoD. I decided to stay for a longer period and got married here. At that time we were the first to come over with the EU agreements of that period.

There were already ex-patriot UK people with huge benefits living here, there were the UK EU adventurers with no objectives but work was abundant, there were the first student exchanges, and some had married into French families. I did not meet any UK people who simply came here to live and work at that time.

 

Most of us found the difference between the UK and France as difficult as between the UK and China. They just did not live, eat or drink like us.

 

I was advised by the first UK settlers to just join in and enjoy myself, which I did.

I first met French culture when I organised the “entente cordiale” between the Concorde R&D groups of UK RAE and French ONERA. It was unbelievable, when the opportunity to have a job and career change came, I took up nuclear engineering in France.

 

I returned to the UK which had drastically changed – Thatcher, strikes, riots. My name  was plagiarised in my work. I had to leave the UK after my employers failed to protect me. I returned to France.

The first time every one talked of the quality of life in France, the second time it was the Iraqi wars and crisis.

 

So what do you need to work and survive in France now and how can the IET French Community help.

France is huge; it is not realistic to travel from SE or SW France for a meeting in Paris.

Maybe we need a newcomers guide such as most French towns give to new arrivals.

France is still totally different from the UK.

We have different categories of IET members who are at least engineering & technology related.

 -Ex-patriot, UK enterprise sales & marketing staff, Erasmus students, Enterprises from the UK that have delocalised with their staff, those that have married into families, entrepreneurs and SMEs in IT technology and those that now just want to work and live in France etc.

What would you advise
  • Should we have a MIET arrivals’ guide

  • Should we have guides to French language courses

  • Should we have guides to CPD in France

  • Should we give advice on French administration

  • What about the dos and don’ts of French culture.


Or should we just mind our own business and keep it to ourselves?

 

I recommend reading : Stephen Clarke – 1000 years of annoying the French and other titles and most of his references. French English history is not as taught in schools.
  •  Out of season hotels in France are cheap, maybe one or two visits with IET families or friends to E&T venues could be affordable.


And the French Community AGM & voting should be on line and at distance.

I’m retiring from E&T have fun in France

 

Give Rob McCann some help

 

John Gowman MIET (ex ITEME Grenobl 1980)

 

  • 0
    Morning all

    Just to clarify a few things on our mailing lists.  The Engineering Communities pages are open to anyone to join and the members on this can be contacted by those who have admin rights on the Community platform with messages about events and what is happening.  The membership database we hold can be viewed by those on the committee who have completed the online IET data protection training (and this includes staff) and we can provide a list so that you can see who is in the LN region.  There are caveats around this with the key ones being it cannot be kept for more than 10 days, it is not for general viewing and it is not to be kept as a mailing list.  There is also the option for each LN to have access to the Adestra system so that the LN can produce emails to go to everyone who has agreed to receive email correspondence in the LN area, so again, everyone can be contacted about events and activities.  


    The IET President was invited by the France LN to attend and speakat a specific joint event in Paris and attended this as a speaker.  We can only ask the IET President to attend what has been asked by the LN and as the calendar is very busy it is not always possible to fit in, or for the LN to host,  another event on a separate evening.  


    We encourage all IET groups to work with other bodies that can help with events and cross promotion - IET events are open to anyone to attend, so the more people we can promote to the better.  We do not have to all join to do this, but an informal agreement with members to help each other would go a long way to support activity.  


    The France LN has put in a plan to start to look at educational initiatives, visits and talks, so what does help is for those on the membership list and those on the Engineering Communities page to push this out if they see something that is of interest. 


    Thanks


    Lynsay 


  • 0
    Keith asks "(why not "Engineers in Europe"?)"


    Because the area of the Venn diagram that covers "Engineers" and "France" has a comfortable degree of disparity.

    IMHO extending the geographic area to cover "Europe" introduces too many local variables of custom and culture. Why should an engineer in Germany be bothered with registering as an Association 1901 and the like?


    Gosh, I hope I'm not implicitly arguing for a technical Frexit!
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Michael,

    I am retired
    now.

    Have you heard of
    the difficulties facing UK Citizens resident in France now,
    Pensions or salaries slashed by BREXIT devaluation.

    Thousands of UK
    citizen residents on the bread line or in great difficulty, many
    taking french nationality.

    As of 2019, we will
    be personna non gratta as I have published on BREXIT bloggs and
    been mockedat by IET BREXIT supporters.



    In 1980
    when I joined ITEME from Grenoble (UK, FR, German, Experimental
    reactor ILL RHF) I was glad to be recognised as PE and to keep
    intouch with UK Technology. I did not need anything else.



    I have
    created a blog on the fiture of IET and what do members expect from
    their PEI. It has caused some positive and many negative
    reactions.



    The answer
    is, that Young PEs living abroad need UK ECUK registration, need to
    be in contact with their PEI.

    For other
    actions, they are professionals; let them look after themselves,
    they will have support from HQ.

    Do they
    really want to be involved in IET France?



    The
    European PEIs are showing an example to UK ECUK and UK PEIs, by
    working and corresponding together.



    I feel
    that the direction of IET is out of touch with reality and with its
    members.



    If members
    want something in France or Beneluxe or EU in general, then they
    should do it for themselves.



    I can no
    longer follow IET activities so I am  bowing out.



    Bonne
    courage to all in EU.



    J
    Gowman 





    Garanti sans virus. www.avg.com

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Keith Parr‍ Just to add my view on the data protection issue, it's not an easy one to solve. My personal view is that handling data is a massive burden and if I were volunteering I would not feel all that comfortable with handling it. The IET also has the incoming GDPR and the relevant laws in many, many countries to contend with. One solution is an email communications tool that volunteers can use called Adestra. Simply put, someone on the LN writes the message and the IET uploads the data into the system so that you never have to handle it and worry about it being up to date. Many LNs are happily using it....


    On a side note, it's not the IET's business if you're using your personal contacts to inform friends and colleagues of an event, as long as you didn't harvest this data with your IET hat on.


    On the topic of the IET's international objectives, I'm going to politely disagree with you! Regional governance and autonomy means that each of the regions is able to set its own LN strategy through volunteer-led committees (UK, EMEA, SA, AP and Americas). The events happening around the world also tell a different story, and you can probably conclude that the IET has offices in the US and Hong Kong for very good reasons! Outside of LNs, colleagues are working hard on partnerships across the middle east. Europe is a tougher nut to crack and the combined challenge of low membership density and limited appreciation of Chartership will never be easy to overcome.
  • 0
    We have had for a long time an informal relationship with the ICE and IMechE and have had some interesting joint meetings, as well as a monthly networking evening in Paris. In fact all meetings are open to all institutions and that really is the only way in which we can achieve sufficient numbers. Jointly, we have held meetings all over France. The ICE have, in the past, also invited us to take part in their European LA conferences. We are also building relationships with the RAeS and Spain and Switzerland IET networks. Any suggestions to improve this relationship would be most welcome.


    The French Network AGM and voting are online via BT Meeting. The details for joining are published on the community web page. Ian can confirm that it is extremely difficult to do this if you have half of the committee around a table and others attending by phone: they cannot hear well, and getting a word in by phone is not easy. It actually works better if everyone connects by phone! If we had a dedicated videoconference facility that may help, but I always found simple audioconferencing at work unsatisfactory unless it was for reporting, rather than discussion. We will continue to keep the AGM open by audioconf, and any suggestions to improve access are welcome. 


    Communication with members is a major problem, in my view. I have tried to post to new members when I get a notification that they have joined, but it is not always possible. I agree with Lyndsay that we have to get the information clearly visible on the community page under the Group Information or Highlights banners. As far as I know, there is nothing to stop other institution members from registering with the IET French Network community, although the IET web site is not the most user-friendly. Ian Gillis' ESWF and Tim Lorkin's Linkedin groups are great initiatives to try to get around the problems but don't address the fundamental issue of IET communication with its members.


    Just one point to correct an impression I got from reading below. Organisations like ours that cover the whole country tend to be capital-centric, but the majority of our technical visits in recent years have been out of Paris, in St.Nazaire, Toulouse, Cadarache, Geneva, Lyon, Mulhouse, Toulon, which covers a large part of France. 


  • 0
    David Houssein Thanks for your thoughts, David.


    I agree that the DP issue has no easy solutions but I think your comment about our own private lists of contacts may be highly relevant.  I don't agree that handling the data is a "massive burden", especially when one sees the positive results it can and does / did deliver.  When I emailed members and friends in the Benelux about a meeting, I used to get email replies offering apologies if people unfortuately could not attend, I don't recall that happening with Adestra.


    You say that many LNs are happy using Adestra, but do you have the figures to demonstrate its effectiveness / reach / penetration?


    On the international question, I'm more than happy to be disagreed with, however I'm aware of a number of international LN officials (some of whom are on Council too) who would support my position.


    I think I'm right that the IET office in the US is essentially a sales and support office for Inspec, or has that changed recently?  And I seem to remember that, while the HK LN is one of the biggest in the IET, the HK office is a regional office providing in time zone support.  Or am I just way out of date?


    But I'm glad to see we agree that Europe is a tough nut to crack, maybe that's something we could usefully discuss.  I imagine that the IET International Strategy must have something to say about it, might you be able to tell us what?


    Keith

  • 0
         Ian Gillis    


    I hope I'm not implicitly arguing for a technical Frexit!




    I hope you're not too!


    Keith

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    I use statistics to analyse
    complicated engineering
    problems.      


    ·        
    3 replies from HQ
    staff


    ·        
    5 replies from IEE past
    members in France


    ·        
    No replies from active PEs
    resident in France.

    I do not have to say
    anymore. Active PEs have to organize IET France as they want it to
    be.





    As the IET continues to
    push out internationally, perhaps there should be some
    consideration as to how the IET could develop its presence further
    across France towards meeting its professional
    objectives?

    J Gowman: I have set up a
    blog on the priority of IET for its members asking why so much
    international effort and not enough European coordination with UK
    PEs. MIET.

    It is now up for active
    PEs in France to organize what they need and want, and then to do
    what is necessary for themselves.




    J Gowman: I joined this
    PEI from France in 1980, I have been refused any contact with
    French IET members because if UK security laws.




    It is normal that the IEE
    members kept up the electrical priorities in France, but that went
    against generalist PEs here.

    I Lisa Miles contacted me
    a few years ago, that is how I learnt about the Paris Office, I
    attended the LU in Paris EPR Financial & Legal Seminar last
    December,; I met Rob Mc Cann after the meeting.  Apparently
    there were other IET Fr members there but we did not meet. That is
    how things are with IET France.




    I hope I'm not implicitly
    arguing for a technical Frexit!

    JG: E Macron has made it
    clear , if you are in France, you do as the French do (just like
    the Romans) .However he has made it clear that he wants a sort of
    Frexit where he can reorganise Europe and make France important
    again. The UK had this opportunity but gave up – hence
    BREXIT.

     It will not be a
    FREXIT, but he is challenging Europe to look after its own
    affaires.




    I am challenging IET to
    give back this PEI to its UK members and all engineers of both
    genders.




    Note:

    I have met UK residents
    every where I have lived in France on the two occasions I have been
    here. Most were not engineers, Those that were engineers gave up C
    Eng and ECUK registration.

    I was in energy and heavy
    industry for a while, there was an active group of UK contract PEs
    mostly HNC, and petrol biased, they met once a month to exchange
    contracting details and new project information.  These are
    the majority of UK PEs in France. None of them were interested in
    PEI ECUK registration.

    This reflects on the last
    UK Engineering survey (Eff) where it was found that PEIs do not
    attract the UK majority of 3 Million PEs and that I Eng is down
    graded.




    From my experience in
    France if you want a job as a full time engineer you only need a
    Master (French Grande Ecole gets first choice).




    If you want to be a
    contracted PE, HNC, or BSc is sufficient with a good
    CV.

    If you were lucky enough
    to be sent over here by your company in the UK, just sit tight and
    get some French CPD.

    If you want gin &
    tonics just stay in touch.




    John Gowman

    - Ingénieur Chercheur
     in France

    -IEng in the UK (ECUK
    retired)

     

  • 0
    Reply to John Gowman,

    You have probably identified a major failing when you say that you have seen no postings from IET members resident in France. This "Community" arrangement is fundamentally flawed. Just take a look at the list of members. What percentage of the IET French membership is there (not to mention the rather strange number of non-French residents.


    However, I find your posts a bit strange in that, whilst I was Chair for too many years, I don't recall ever having welcomed you to an IEE or IET meeting, where ever these have been across France.


    For information, there is no "Paris office" of the IET. In 2008 (I think) I made a budget proposal to set one up in line with the instructions received from London to "go and spread the word". My proposal was swept away with a request to "start it ourselves". We had already made a pretty good job of starting it ourselves but France is four times the size of England and has a population of something like 60 million. Engineering education is amongst the best in the world and entry to the Grandes Ecoles is much sought after. No "image problem" here. In short, it is not a handful of volunteers that can sustainably "spread the word" across France. In London they didn't like my use of the word "naïve" but it was appropriate.


    As you have been in France for so long, presumably you have French nationality. Right? So what is the job issue? When all else is equal, the local boy gets hired.


    You say you are retired and that is why you don't feel able to get involved. Maybe we could remember that a very recent IET President only got involved in IET volunteering when he retired?


    It seems that every post from you ends with a (is it a threat or a promise?) to "bow out". The Unsubscibe button is there if you want to use it but why not put your energy into working with Rob, Phil and Co? Or, perhaps you won't receive this because you found the Unsubscribe button already?
  • 0
    Maybe David Houssein could enlighten us as to his connection with France?

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