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ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

If we allow fully electric vehicles on our motorways then for sure some of them are going to fail going up a steep hill.  Should the highways agency be planning to install charging points at the bottom of all hills do you think??
  • Hello Michael,

    In England compared to other countries there is more (probably not long ago was outside the UK). The law requires that an electric vehicle sold must receive a charging service and with no then is a problem that needs to be checked and addressed. Anyway I know England is a fast developing country.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Denis, I agree, seems we need a sensible and pragmatic approach so we don't re-invent or discard a perfectly good, heavily invested in, re-fuelling infrastructure we have for fossil-fuelled vehicles that could be used for LCVs. We don't keep topping up our fossil-fuelled vehicles from a 'home or work refinery' to ensure we don't run out of petrol/diesel whenever we park up, so why the obsession with having to install millions of charging points to keep batteries topped up for a LCV era? There is an advantage with 'smart storage' when that comes along, that storage in vehicles could become part of a 'virtual storage farm' when the vehicles are not required, but this could provide connectivity in a number of ways, including trailing power cables.
  • The hiccup is one of rate of transfer of energy - the speed to refuel a petrol car means the service station borders on the burn rate equivalent to a modest power station

    (call it 10 killowatt hours per litre for unleaded and easy nos, so a 3/4 fil up of say 30 litres is 300 kWhrs. In 180 seconds = 1/20 of an hour, so  ~ 6 megawatts delivery rate per pump. At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy). 

    It is quite practical to fill up in 3 minutes, and in 2 more to have paid and be driving off. 


    Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVA per good charge, but even so unless you have a battery swap scheme, recharging mid-journey is a much slower  business, so at any time, more cars will be parked up and buzzing merrily for  an hour or so at a time - so filling up at home before you even get in it has some appeal.


     typical family EV  has a charge rate of 23mph (so to put enough in for a 23mile range takes an hour sitting on charge) or more like 100 miles in an hour if fast charge is available. Not exactly quick, if you are going a long way.

  • mapj1:

    The hiccup is one of rate of transfer of energy - the speed to refuel a petrol car means the service station borders on the burn rate equivalent to a modest power station . . .

     



    Thanks, Mike. A very relevant point! Hence it will become popular for motorists to charge their vehicles at home overnight.

    Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVA

     



    Even if they have no more than a 13 A socket to plug into, that should provide 30 kWh overnight. A proper charging point will provide much more. (Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)


    This is OK, at any rate, for those fortunate enough to have drives or garages to park their cars off-road. For someone living in a 3rd storey flat and having to park on-street, it will be less easy. Hence there will need to be plenty of fast charging points in shopping centre car parks and such like, where cars can charge while owners shop. This is already starting to happen where I live.


    There still seems to be a lot of focus and worry about long range capabilities of electric cars. Many cars however are used mainly as short-journey runabouts and only occasionally take long motorway journeys. For those long journeys, advantage will need to be taken of charging points at service areas. This will require half an hour or so, but one should take breaks every 2 hours or so on a motorway journey anyway.

    At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy



    I seldom see more than about five cars filling up at a motorway service area, even when all three lanes are thick with traffic and the refreshment area are heaving. It seems most motorists prefer to tank up at a local supermarket before a long journey - can't think why! With electric cars it may not be possible to fully charge in advance for a long journey, and we will need to provide much more than five charge points at each service area, and again this is already happening.

  • (Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)




    I think we could also start a whole topic on the updates needed to the way we run the LV (230/400) network. At the moment the substations are all sized on about 2kVA per house, because that is the average demand over time, smoothed over a large number of houses, so a 400A substation fuse feeds 25-35 houses, each of whom imagine they have a 100A supply, and perhaps  half a dozen street lights. Adding charge points for the first 1% who would like one is easy, as the extra load is negligible.  When that becomes something like 10% all charging at once, the substation is overloaded.

    And there is a problem for all those cars parked nose to tail on both sides of terraced streets - I'm not sure we want extension leads out of every bedroom window, but at the cheap end of town it is what we will get if we do not make a formal provision.

    The average UK car does around 10k miles a year    That is  30 miles a day, again smoothed over many.  That 30kVA mentioned above, gets perhaps you perhaps100 miles so recharge every 3 to 4 days, or more likely, a shorter charge taken more often, but a similar total.


    It will sort of work, but no without a lot of careful load management, and maybe adding thermostatic fans on the substations. one of many ideas being trialled as we type..


  • Thanks Denis,

    I agree that electric cars and much cleaner than hybrid vehicles for short trips in a city but are risky to take up the motorway if you trying to get somewhere within a reasonable time.  Although there are just sufficient charging points for the present; the EVs still need at least half an hour each to charge up their battery.  Can you imagine if you are third in line how frustrating that would be? 

    To solve that problem each motorway service station could become a mini power station with say a 5 MW generator of its own. But the genset would burn diesel, petrol or gas which is the same fuel the hybrid car is using already.  

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Clive, turning a petrol/diesel re-fuelling station into a LCV re-fuelling station is a sensible approach, but why does the XMW power generation need to come from a diesel genset? It could come easily be produced from a 'green grid' connection (the Grid is rapidly de-carbonising), or nearby wind/solar/hydro farms with biomass and storage backup, etc.
  • I can offer the following opinions:


    1) Since battery electric cars have a range of anything between 75 and 200 miles when carrying passengers and being driven normally and conventional cars offer anything from 300 milles to 600 miles then an electric car is 3 to 4 times more prone to break downs whilst hill climbing per 1000 miles of motoring, than a conventional car.


    2) Two way charging points installed at home are now well developed and energy suppliers have been running Vehicle to Grid (V2G) trials with volunteers who have a Leaf, Zoe, i3 or similar for over 18 months in the UK - whereby the trialists get all their electric motoring for next to no cost due to the generous feed in tarrifs offered.


    3)  From 1). above, it seems reasonable to state that the current crop of battery electric cars, with kerb weights between 1200 Kg and 1800 Kg, carrying almost exhausted battery packs ranging from 100Kg to 300 Kg, loosely based on conventional ICE engined bodies, subframes and cycle parts, are not designed to be suitable for any journeys beyond their real world range.


  • I'd not consider running out of fuel / charge  to be a breakdown of the vehicle.

    More  a failure of the driver to understand the correct operation of the machine. There is no excuse for either, unless the fuel gauge is defective.
  • Maurice,

    Take a look at the nat grid site," https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ " and you will see that all the wind/solar/hydro is already being used to base load the grid.  The grid is already having to use CCGT combine cycle generation plant that is using gas or oil fired plant.  If we want to generate more power to charge up electric vehicles then we must build more power station that will be burning gas or oil fuels at an efficiency of 60%.  This is a huge capital cost but does not reduce our dependence on the gas and fuel-oil used overall just where it is produced.

    Much better to make the motor industry produce more efficient hybrid engines with variable speed electric transmission rather than clutch and gearboxes and save the grid power for manufacturing and domestic use.   Put solar panels on all roofs facing south could be a much more worthwhile investment rather than building more power stations