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Career advice from senior or retired engineers

Peter Brooks
The purpose of this forum is highlight information from senior or retired engineers that will provide advice to new people entering the profession. 


The recent published articles by the IET:-

"Too old to be an engineer" in the E&T July 2019 magazine

"100,000 older workers kicked out of IBM, as company craved Googles Cool image" published August 1, 2019

started me thinking about the need to communicate advice on avoiding speed bumps during one's carrier.


During my 45+ years in engineer I have been laid off twice -once when I was 28 and again at 63.

I have worked for 9 companies in three countries where 8 of those companies are no longer in existence. 

Total time out of work has not exceeded 6 weeks.

I have made three complete changes in related technology/products.


Here is an example of the advice I received early on in my career:- "The young engineer knows the rules, the old engineer knows the exceptions" -- meaning even if one thinks one knows the answer ask the senior engineer if there is better solution.


Peter Brooks MIET

Palm Bay Florida USA


 

   


  • 0
    Hello Benyamin:


    Just for the record Miami is about 180 miles directly south of my city.


    It is probably the most corrupt city in the USA, but New Orleans is right behind.


    The good news is that it will be underwater by the end of this century.


    Even now they have regular high tides which wash through the city streets.


    When buying a new or second hand car one has to watch if it have been submerged under sea water . There are certain signs it one looks closely.


    Currently we are getting a migration of people out of South Florida into our "safer" area. They are building a large number of residual houses and rental buildings to meet the needs. 


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA  


     

      


  • 0
    Some of my thoughts


    Engage with more experienced people , be interested in their perspective and ask for their advice.  Every “expert” has a different opinion, because they have different personalities, social backgrounds, affiliations, prejudices and experience.  The same circumstances are interpreted and described differently by  people depending on their perspective or “frame of reference”.  Be wary of those of strong opinion, who may be persuasive, charismatic or even  dominating, they may not have your best interests at heart.  Even if they do, they may have different personality traits, so the advice of a perfectionist to “pore over the detail” will not sit comfortably with someone who wants to make rapid progress or prefers social interaction.  Most people have some flexibility, but will rarely sustain an activity that they don’t enjoy for long, without losing motivation and interest. On that basis, ensure that you are in a place that is well aligned with what motivates you and is aligned with your talents.   


    Engineering and technology is very diverse, but there are also many involved who are prescriptive and disapproving of those who didn’t follow their preferred “rite of passage” or career pathway.  This is one of the reasons that membership of professional institutions is significantly lower than it could be, because if you don’t “fit the mould”, it seems that you don’t “fit in”.  So as an employer’s representative I found some professional institution representatives advising our young engineers to “get a different job”, not because of salary or career prospects, but because they valued Chartered Engineer “status” above becoming a Contracts Manager or ultimately Director.  The business did employ a few Chartered Engineers in the design functions, so it was a potential option assuming that you weren’t already excluded on academic grounds, but not the most optimal for the majority of equally able people.  


    I know people who abandoned a practical career to become a full-time student so they could become a Chartered Engineer, some who studied part-time and as it has become more possible in recent years, some who gained recognition via work-based learning, but there are not many of those aged under 40. Clearly successful careers, but I have also seen many who made senior management by early thirties from being an engineer, without CEng. My advice from is to understand the expectations of different employers, or the potential amenable market for employment for someone like you. Also be aware that markets change, some specific knowledge and skills may become obsolete while other needs emerge.  


    If you want to be lucky in your career, then try to avoid denting your reputation, through poor work,  lack of diligence, unreliability, or damaging important relationships. Most company management involves some politics so if you can’t handle that, then stay technically focussed. However, if you are in an unhappy or even abusive relationship, then leave as soon as you can.  Various quotes defining luck as being “opportunity meeting preparedness” are attributed to different people, but if you want to be “lucky” then prepare yourself for potential opportunities, some effort may not produce immediate results, but being proactive will.  Consider relocating if possible to a place that offers the best local opportunities for your type of work , or if necessary others opportunities to deploy your stronger attributes.  Luck found me near London with some relocation help from my employer, although home working is more viable now in some careers.                             


    The use of mathematical formulae suggests that engineering consists mostly of precise “right or wrong” answers.  In most situations where a formal “scientific method” is used https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/engineering-design-process/engineering-design-compare-scientific-method , this may produce something justifiable, but there may be other justifiable answers as well, so in many situations negotiation is required.   However, most engineering activities have been carried out many times before, so standard rules have been developed over generations (like the wiring regulations), which everyone can follow. Even still, unless the activity is very simple, most regulations have room for interpretation or “skill and judgement”.


    I’m assuming that readers of this forum, are likely to either be “professional” or aspire to it.  The first and foremost characteristic that being “professional” embodies in my eyes, that has been mentioned already, is trust. That involves a reasonable standard of honesty and respect for others, trying to keep promises and managing others expectations about those promises. 


    Professionals in engineering & technology exercise skill and judgement in many different ways. A professional electrician for example will have skills and make judgements about quality versus price, without dipping below minimum acceptable standards of quality, safety or regulation compliance. A professional engineer with significant responsibility, may have to make similar judgements but in a more complex range of circumstances, perhaps involving technical issues that are not so clearly codified.  Once there is a management dimension then there may also be range of people involved, with different technical and commercial perspectives.  At the more senior levels of management,  the advice of different experts (which might conflict) has to be weighed, decisions made and the consequences faced. 


    Using this frame of reference, the most crucial factor is experience, so it is normal for those with more complex responsibility to have significant experience.  However, experiential learning  is quite difficult to measure, because it isn’t a formal syllabus with exams, it comes in many different ways, some people will learn good things, some bad ones, some will learn quickly, other more slowly or even not at all.  There is a comparison with luck here, because sometimes quite a small amount of learning “unlocks the key” to knowledge that they already possess but can’t describe clearly (tacit knowledge).  In my experience a large number of people who are fundamentally intelligent, don’t realise their potential until they have left the formal education system, which is something of a straightjacket.  Some people can be “tripped” by becoming inarticulate under pressure, or where judgement is via the written word, or mathematics.


    As has also been said, a career is only one aspect of life, so there are choices to be made.  I worked continuously for 40+ years in jobs that paid more than the average for someone of my age.  I didn’t have a career plan or role model to follow, so I just played the hand that came my way.  I started as an apprentice (applying just after my 16th birthday) and some of my then peers spent their whole career as Technicians.  I’m interested and enthusiastic about engineering  in general, but there are many other things also capture my interest and that I could have pursued.  Probably including at a young age sport to a higher level.


    Professions tend to think in silos and society defines us in those terms.  Instead of looking back, I wonder if our experts here could cast their minds forward to the likely future pattern of careers.  What “silo’s” look most promising and what approach should someone with a balance of different talents take?   In checking when Charles Handy predicted portfolio careers , I came across this    https://www.hrzone.com/engage/managers/academic-insight-charles-handy-on-leadership-work-and-well-being


  • 0
    Hello Roy:


    Regarding your first paragraph ( I am still reviewing the remaining sections) it my experience that the job function (the lock) requires the right person filling that function (the key) to produce a stable situation.


    I  had the opportunity to work in three different countries in three different stable companies, manufacturing the same end product, and I discovered that people filling the same key manufacturing step(s) had the same basic personality.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA
  • 0
    Hello Roy:


    Here are my comments concerning the second and third paragraphs:- Regarding Chartered Engineers- 


    In my 40 years working in the US I have never met a Chartered Engineer or seen any Employer who wanted to employ one.


    I believe the reason for this is that they look at Chartered Engineers as being a seed for the introduction of Engineering Unions into their company.


    The general perspective in the US is that Unions were controlled by the Mafia or by Communists.


    The relocation of manufacturing and research facilities from the north east (Boston) and central north (Chicago) areas down to the south (Florida) and west (Santa Clara and Phoenix), was desire to break the power of the Unions.


    Some states like Florida have "Right to work" laws which prevent unions from requiring a person to be union member after hiring by a company.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA
  • 0
    Two interesting points Peter! 


    I agree, that in addition to gaining the necessary knowledge and skills, personality is a key factor, both in relation to a specific role and as part of a team.


    Occupational Psychologists would claim to be able to predict potential suitability for particular types of roles on the basis of personality. This was one of the “other interests” that I referred to, so I gained a basic qualification in that area and attended several presentations by Peter Saville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Saville_(psychologist)). I also met Charles Magerison https://www.pocketbook.co.uk/blog/2017/07/18/charles-margerison-dick-mccann-team-management/ , Meredith Belbin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_Belbin  and John Adair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_leadership_model


    The “union” angle also helps, because someone building a career needs to understand whether they want to work “north and east” or “south and west”.  The issues of North American state licensure and employer exemptions has come up in these forums.  The overlap between “learned societies” (aka professional engineering institutions) and trades unions was addressed in the 1980s and Engineering Council affiliation debars “trades union type” activities. Nevertheless, my example illustrated the potential for conflicting loyalties or priorities.  Some employers are enthusiasts and others justifiably cautious or even antagonistic, perhaps in relation to their needs for engineers of “chartered type” relative to other roles. Aspects of some professional institution activities are perhaps closer to the role of a Trade Association (for employers) than a Trades Union. The perspective of academics and academic institutions has also tended to dominate.  Without wishing to insult them, they are also engaged in a trade.    

    In my previous role when someone asked for my advice about becoming CEng, I would usually seek to explore what was making them unhappy in their job first, because they were obvious looking to polish their CV.      


  • 0
    Hello Peter Brooks,

    I disagree with you because there are many countries that study engineering and have no recognition whatsoever.

    I know in the United States there is recognition of the Washinton and Apostille agreement and that's fine.

    In contrast, there are colleges and universities that do not give Apostille and the Washington Agreement.

    Map will get the conclusions alone.
  • 0
    Here is a general question concerning "Unions".


    How many engineers looking at this blog actually had to walk through union picket lines at their place of employment?


    It happened to me twice, once in the UK and once in Canada.


    It is not a positive event in one's career.


    Here is my advice for that situation -- park you car (if you own one) as far away as possible from the picket line.


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA


  • 0
    A great idea for a thread as we often get asked about careers advice but as staff are not able to provide it, I've always said part of the value of the IET is the collective wisdom and experience of our members :)
  • 0
    I agree with you. The community at IET is important so it is good that we raise important issues that everyone knew
  • 0
    Hello Roy:


    I am now ready to discuss your fourth paragraph in your message from August 19th 2019:-


    You can not divorce yourself from company politics by just staying technically focused. One has to request funds to support the project - example buying a certain brand of test equipment.


    Upper management may have preferred vendors they always deal with (example used to be IBM for computers).


    Concerning an unhappy or abusive relationship - I agree with you 100% . I experienced an event in my early career when bullying of the chief engineer by his boss, the plant manager, led to him committing suicide. The plant manager was never impacted by this event.


    Regarding relocating to another company. Make sure that the new work location is not more than 30 miles from a commercial airport. Don't get trapped in a remote out of the way location (possible example new Spaceport in northern Scotland).


    Peter Brooks MIET

    Palm Bay Florida USA



      


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