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Where is the IET going?

The IET on Twitter is mostly about women in engineering and it appears we also have or have had an Executive member who represents the Association for Black and Minority Ethnic Engineers (AFBE-UK). Since when did we get away and direct our selves at subsections of the organization? There is no minorities that I am aware of in the IET at least not because of bias in any way shape of form. The same goes for women in engineering, no one is biased against them. Low numbers are because they dont want to be in engineering..

Where is the IET heading? It does not seem to be going in a place most of the member wold probably want or is it?
  • https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-inclusion-toolkit-resources/inclusive-recruitment
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Raymond Cragg:

    The IET on Twitter is mostly about women in engineering


    Where is the IET heading? It does not seem to be going in a place most of the member wold probably want or is it?




    I too have noticed the bias in the social media output, mainly Instagram and Facebook accounts.   We have a "Young Woman Engineer of the Year" award but no equivalent for young men or better, a general one for all.   I appreciate that woman are under represented in our profession for a variety of reasons, and I'm sure you could say the same for the number of male nurses!   I don't think you're promoting equality when you've got a biased agenda.


    The recent relaunch of the IET with the pink equals sign really drove that message home.


    In a couple of days my IET membership will expire and I'm not renewing.   The clearly obvious bias and spending excessive amounts of time on STEM for school children seems at odds with the general membership of the IET.   The members are being left behind for an agenda I'm not sure is within the remit of the IET.


    The bigger problem for me is what am I getting out of my IET membership?   £ 170 renewal for a magazine who's quality has gone down over the years.   When I joined 30+ years ago we got a journal in the area of interest.   I attended local events.   I participated in the Young Members section helping organise a very successful technical visit to a local brewery (and the subsequent sampling of their products!).   But in the last decade what have I got from the IET?   A yearly and increasing bill!


    They've even closed down my local IET venue, the Teacher Building in Glasgow.   I'd often walk past thinking if only it was a support centre for engineers; acting as a outreach centre from Savoy Place.  It never did anything more than be a conference venue.


    Where's the member engagement?   It seems if you're in and about London you can attend many events in Savoy Place, but outside of this area you're stuck!   They don't want to know.   I've traveled and attended many industrial events and courses, but none by the IET.


    For many years I've just told myself pay the membership and see how this year turns out with the IET.   This year I've agonised over this but I've decided: I'm not renewing.   If there comes a time when the IET changes direction, becomes the centre of excellence again for engineers, or that I need to be a member for some reason, I'll rejoin.   But I've already talked with the IEEE and they say I'm not alone.   There are increasing numbers disillusioned with the IET looking to join the IEEE instead.


     


  • John Sim:


      It seems if you're in and about London you can attend many events in Savoy Place, but outside of this area you're stuck!   They don't want to know.  





    Hi John


    Have you been in touch with the volunteers from your Local Network? There are three Local Networks in Scotland all of which organise a variety of different IET events all over Scotland!


    I believe you're in the IET Scotland South West area. If they don't have any current events that are of interest to you then I'd heartily recommend getting in touch with them to let them know what sort of events you would enjoy. ?


    The IET staff contact for the Local Networks in Scotland is Tania Pomroy‍. If you need it, Tania will be able to put you in touch with the volunteer team there.

     

    Lisa
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Lisa Miles:




    Hi John


    Have you been in touch with the volunteers from your Local Network?


    Lisa

     




    Hi Lisa,


    I have been in touch with them.


    This isn't a decision that I've taken lightly.   You don't be a member for 30+ years and make a rash decision!   This is how I've felt for years, that the IET is not providing value to its members.


    If you look at the events section of your site for my area you'll see it's fairly empty.   The only event listed is a dinner.   No other form of technical engagement listed.   Maybe there's been a problem with getting news out to members as to what is happening in my area (searching my emails I see nothing from the IET for events), but even when I look there's not much to see!


     

  • John your counterpoint about male representation in Nursing is perfectly valid.  I hope that my contribution widened the discussion into all forms of negative stereotyping and cultural bias. Research has shown that the current education system which prepares people for engineering career is disadvantaging young “White British” and “Black British” males from lower social classes the most.  When I worked in Glasgow sometimes, issues around religious sectarian discrimination, came to my attention.  


    As I said in an earlier post, I challenged those who bemoaned “the hard hat” image of engineering. I respect their argument, that those who would prefer a career in clean conditions, might find this unattractive, but equally for those who would like a more active outdoor career the hard hat is a positive symbol.  Academic proficiency in maths is important to some engineering roles, but not to others, yet the career is presented by some as a diet of equations, with a few site visits thrown in. Why are there so few women in IT, which is conducted in clean conditions?  Looking to the future we just have to nurture upcoming talent, which means creating aspiration among young people and removing myths that might deter them. As I see it this is essential element of the IET’s charitable remit.


    There is a separate argument which we shouldn’t conflate with diversity, about the quality, relevance and availability of technical information, local or specialist events etc. On this basis you are perfectly entitled to complain that the offering isn’t meeting your needs, lobby for change and ultimately choose to renounce membership and/or join the IEEE if you wish.  The IET is incredibly fortunate to enjoy the level of commitment and support that is has from its members, including your contributions over the years.


    In the IETs defence, I would observe that the breadth of specialist interests held by members is enormous and overlaps with almost every more specialised body. It is a pre-eminent source of specialist advice in some of those, but can’t sensibly replicate the specialist expertise of others. Historically Learned Societies fragmented into specialist interest groups, with many becoming unsustainable. If the IET isn’t enabling “technical special interest groups” to thrive, then it is missing a trick and needs to improve. 


    I don’t know if there is any bias towards the “special interest” of female participation, at the expense of a technical focus? I think that this is a false dichotomy, but choices have to be made about resources and volunteer action can make quite a difference.  So if female activists, post more on social media, their views will predominate. I don’t have any problem with that personally. As I said in an earlier post if the problem no longer exists then we should stop talking about it.


    I was sad to see the closure of The Teacher Building. Although I only used it a couple of times, I was immediately struck how it wasn’t being used as a “home” by local members. My immediate thought apart from the obvious was, “younger members could have smart drinks receptions or similar”.  I only became aware of its closure after the decision.


    I wrote the following about a year ago  

    Following the closure of the Teacher Building, I sincerely hope that we are considering, maintaining a symbolic physical presence in Scotland.

    I am not myself a Scot and have only been an occasional visitor over the years, although by chance Skills Development Scotland (part of the Scottish Government) were kind enough to invite me and a colleague to attend a conference in Glasgow last year. My previous employer also derived 5-10% of its turnover in Scotland with the CEO and serval other directors of Scottish origin. I always maintained close relationships with our Scottish Region with offices in Glasgow & Edinburgh, who recruited and trained Engineers and Technicians. Without this presence we would not have been included in public sector contract tender lists, or had such strong relationships in the private sector.

    I am not in a position to assess the value of an IET office in Scotland, but I think that we should seek to engage strongly with the Scottish Government as well as Academic and Corporate Partners located there. There are important differences, not always great, but keenly felt north of the border. The political completion, economy and national priorities are different. Importantly also, perhaps the scale is more manageable and inertia less, which may allow them to make progress more quickly in areas we might like to support (such as revitalising technical apprenticeships for example).

    Whatever contribution the Teacher Building has or hasn’t made, its symbolic presence was important.     


    You have clearly earned the right to make your own decision, which does not in my opinion diminish your 30+ years of service, or disqualify you from participating/contributing, since local many events are “open access” anyway. If as you say your decision is carefully considered, then I hope you recognise that the diversity issue is major one for society generally. The IET can either be dragged “kicking and screaming” along that path, or exercise moral leadership. I think that it has made the right choice in that respect.  The balance of “noise” on social media at any particular point in time, should not be guiding us, but if a young woman becomes an engineer or technician as a result, that is to be celebrated.        


  • I agree with the statement about the Young Women Engineer or the Year.  I also agree that there ought to be either additional competitions for other genders or you should have a Young Engineer of the Year alone.  I'm fairly certain that the young females are more then capable of competing with the young males (let alone any other gender designation) on an equal basis.


    I'd disagree about any complaint regarding STEM promotion to children.  The more the better as far as I'm concerned!  We ought to be thinking to our futures not stuck in the past.


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Roy Bowdler:

    You have clearly earned the right to make your own decision, which does not in my opinion diminish your 30+ years of service, or disqualify you from participating/contributing, since local many events are “open access” anyway. If as you say your decision is carefully considered, then I hope you recognise that the diversity issue is major one for society generally. The IET can either be dragged “kicking and screaming” along that path, or exercise moral leadership. I think that it has made the right choice in that respect.  The balance of “noise” on social media at any particular point in time, should not be guiding us, but if a young woman becomes an engineer or technician as a result, that is to be celebrated.        

     




    I'm trying to be careful with what I have said about the bias that's coming from the IET.   The output that we are seeing from them is skewed.   My point here is that you can not challenge inequality by inequality!   If we give out a prize for Young Woman Engineer of the Year we have to, absolutely must, also give out a prize for young Man Engineer.   I would much prefer complete equality but your statements on race and colour isn't one I've ever recognised within the IET.


    But we also have a focus on what seems like STEM events for school children.   Which gives me the impression that the IET is focusing on teachers rather than engineers.   If there is a problem with the lack of STEM participation then it must be endemic within the curriculum of the schools.   You are not going to solve this by having a one day Lego build competition!   It's not enough.


    On a wider scale, it seems that youngsters are becoming consumers rather than creators!   When was the last time you seen someone with a set of pram wheels nailing them with flattened bean cans to a bogie?   The problem is bigger than the IET can solve.   As a nation we seem to have given up on creating new technologies.   We don't seem to have the youths sitting in front of their computers writing software, but instead posting to social media instead.   We don't have a hobby electronics industry as we had before, and the closure of Maplin was a very sad day (although they seem to have diverted from their kit origins too).   This is why we've got a shortage of new engineers.


    Alas, for me, it's a question really of what do I get out of the IET.   Yes, I'm being selfish, as is my right.   I don't mind part of my fees going to help the next generation but what else do I get?

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Mark Tickner:

    I agree with the statement about the Young Women Engineer or the Year.  I also agree that there ought to be either additional competitions for other genders or you should have a Young Engineer of the Year alone.  I'm fairly certain that the young females are more then capable of competing with the young males (let alone any other gender designation) on an equal basis.


    I'd disagree about any complaint regarding STEM promotion to children.  The more the better as far as I'm concerned!  We ought to be thinking to our futures not stuck in the past.


     




    Thank you for your reply and support on having equality.


    I should clarify my point about STEM teaching.   I think this is clearly the job of schools to prepare children correctly and a major failing of the curriculum.   The IET turning up for an afternoon once at a random school isn't going to make any significant impact.   If the IET is to have a role in this then it has to be in ensuring that the right STEM classes are taught within schools.   That the curriculum is designed to prepare school children for an engineering or science future.   Firstly to encourage them to make the selections to the right subjects, then through to getting the right grades for university.


    Generally, however, we have a bigger problem in that children seem to increasingly becoming consumers rather than creators.   Games machines don't allow for users to program them!   We're not getting the next generator sitting down in front of a computer and writing software.   Nor with the demise of the likes of Maplin are they building electronic kits.   That is a stage we're missing from their education - problem solving.


    It's something that I think the Raspberry Pi has done a lot more to aid than the IET.   If anything the IET should be ensuring that government supplies every school child with one and a kit of electronics to play with!

     


  • Mark Tickner:

    .... you should have a Young Engineer of the Year alone.  




     

    That already exists Mark. Last years winner:  https://www.thebigbangfair.co.uk/news/media-and-press/press-releases/josh-mitchell-named-uk-young-engineer-of-the-year-2018/ 


    There are various other 'Engineer of the year' awards available globally but I believe (and  happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) that there is only one award to celebrate the achievements of young women in engineering and that is the IET / WES (Women's Engineering Society) Young Woman Engineer of the year awards. 


    I've always been very interested in the different and varied opinions around this particular award with some saying 'absolutely, it's great to recognise young women in the industry' and others saying 'it's a sexist award and should be scrapped'.


    If we shouldn't have the Young Woman Engineer of the year award then should there not be a Women in Engineering Society either? ?
  • John


    I empathise with your perspective, but also recognise in myself the quote “To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.” (attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte). I built carts from junk and ordered components from Maplin by mail order before it had branches.  My “pet gripe” is the loss of good apprenticeship opportunities, which were available throughout the country when most of the major industries were nationalised.  This isn’t a political point about privatisation, simply an observation on great change over the last half century.  When as an employer’s representative, I criticised schools for steering bright young people away from apprenticeships , the reasonable response was; where are these apprenticeships and how many are there? In my case the answer was “up to 3 in Glasgow and 2 in Edinburgh”.  We rather assumed that Higher Education would solve the problem, without having a coherent plan, so results have been “patchy”. 


    I don’t have any figures to hand, but my understanding is that of the circa 99% of awards, prizes and scholarships given by the IET which don’t involve any gender element, for the first time ever this year, those student bursaries awarded on the basis of A level results went to around 50% females.  I know of one or two examples in employment where a man has felt unfairly “passed over” for a “token” female candidate and have lost count of the number of occasions where women have hit a glass ceiling, or suffered some disadvantage.  


    I agree that if we were taking from one gender to give to another, that could be morally questionable because we are creating a win-lose scenario. To squabble endlessly about it just creates a lose-lose scenario. If we respect equally all Engineers and Technicians who meet the standards we expect, then that creates a win-win scenario where everyone can potentially gain. How many among us have been perennially obsessed with snobbery and one-upmanship before any more than a handful of women got involved?


    As I said in the previous post, not getting value is a perfectly valid reason to leave the IET. As is just “falling out of love” with the messaging and direction of travel. I tried to engage with and understand some of those former IIE members who have left feeling “insulted” over IEng treatment.  Some ventilated their grievance in these forums first. You have taken the trouble to voice your reasons. Both situations offer a learning opportunity for the IET.  However “you can’t please all of the people all of the time” .