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Question about Output Power of Batteries in Domestic Solar PV Installation

Hi, hoping for a bit of advice. Last year, I took up a local authority (Sussex, England) offer to get a quote for a PV installation on our 1960s bungalow. An initial estimate based on info I'd supplied duly came through. In general it looked sensible enough.

Specifically, it suggested that we would be able to use 1,100kWhr of solar power if no battery was installed; or 3,200kWhr (our entire usage) if a 6.1kWhr battery was added.

However, I wondered if that allowed for specific appliances (information they didn't have, AFAIK), especially the 10kW electric shower. I asked what the maximum output (Watts or Amps) of the battery was.

They couldn't answer, unless I paid the £100 deposit to proceed, which seemed a bit unhelpful. I couldn't readily find said info online, either.

A little bit of modelling this evening:

  • I assumed that high load appliances were never, ever, used at the same time.
  • We have electric shower, kettle, oven, washing machine etc.
  • No electric space or tap water heating, and no electric hob, no dishwasher either.
  • I chose an arbitrary 2kW “limit” to the battery power, sufficient to power smaller high-power appliances, but less than kettle or shower.

 

Result suggests that of our roughly 3,200kWhr annual usage:

  • ⅓ is low-load appliances that may be on quite a lot of the time. Readily supplied from a battery, I'd think.
  • ⅓ is appliances up to 2kW that may be on occasionally. This includes the first 2kW of big wattage units like the kettle & shower, which assumes that a high load can be shared between battery and incoming supply, rather than just turning the battery off.
  • ⅓  is the portion of high-load appliances that exceeds 2kW. The vast majority of this is the shower.

 

So, clearly, the ability of the battery to power high wattage appliances over 2kW is quite important to the overall payback, up to a maximum of 10kW at least.

Does anyone here know what the maximum instantaneous output (sustainable for say 10 minutes) of these domestic battery systems is likely to be?

Also, depending on battery technology, it strikes me that heavy use of the shower during gloomy months could run close to the batteries real capacity limit: I don't know how these systems are quoted, I do know for our camper van there are dire warnings of consequences if more than 50% of the lead-acid habitation battery nominal capacity is used.

  • An electric shower probably wont work at all on 110 volts. The reduced voltage probably wont operate the solenoid valve that controls the water supply.

    An electric immersion heater can be used on a reduced voltage, but this is better achieved via an electronic controller than via a transformer. Consider the cost of the transformer and the losses therein.

    I would simply retain the electric shower and accept that use of this appliance means importing a little grid electricity.

  • It sure does sound complicated. However, I do take issue with the idea that the electric shower uses “a little” grid electricity: In my household I think the shower is about ⅓ of our electricity consumption.

    But isn't there a simpler form of the suggestion? Use thermal solar to heat said cylinder, and plumb cylinder output to input of standard electric shower. If the stored water is reasonably warm you can turn the power control of the shower to its middle setting, and use significantly less power. 

    There may be installation instructions or regulations telling you not to connect an electric shower to hot supply, but that applies in the 110V variation as well.

    As a complete aside, can I ask if:

    a) With UK style 230V radial circuit, connected to a 110V transformer, if there is human type connection to either 110V wire, will the 230V circuit RCD trip? 

    b) If so, what happens when the 230V side is cut off, does the collapsing magnetic field or whatever leave a potentially hazardous amount of energy still able to do damage on the 110V side? 

  • Gideon: 
     

    As a complete aside, can I ask if:

    a) With UK style 230V radial circuit, connected to a 110V transformer, if there is human type connection to either 110V wire, will the 230V circuit RCD trip? 

    If the transformer has at least simple separation and there is no connection (other than protective earth) between secondary and primary, no the primary RCD cannot trip and RCD protection (if required) should be provided on the secondary. I say “if required” because in the building site Reduced Low Voltage System, an RCD is not always necessary to comply with BS 7671, but there is no problem providing one.

    If the transformer is an auto-transformer, then the primary RCD is able to trip.

    b) If so, what happens when the 230V side is cut off, does the collapsing magnetic field or whatever leave a potentially hazardous amount of energy still able to do damage on the 110V side? 

    Stored energy would be possible, but I don't think it's ever been taken into consideration when overcurrent devices provided automatic disconnection, for example … 

  • The stored magnetic energy (I2 L where L is the inductance of the primary when the secondary is unloaded) may be released as a short duration transient, but the sizing of transformer cores and winding resistances is such that this transient is all over in a few 50ths of a second, or the transformer is seriously oversized… Usually enough to make a rather scary ‘pock’ at the switches, and maybe burn the contacts a  bit. This is the ‘back EMF’ spike that you may have been bitten by.

    There is no exact magnetic analogy of the stored electric charge , where a charge may persist across an open circuit capacitor  almost for ever.

    The nearest you get to magnetic energy storage that is the superconducting magnet, where a coil of superconducting alloy wire cooled to zero resistance has a current set flowing, and then the ends joined together. That gives a more or less permanent electro-magnet, but unless you make medical scanners or work at CERN it is not the sort of thing you see very often. The biggest risk there is not shock, but being struck or trapped by magnetic objects. (or being killed by a leak from the cooling system) 

    However, like shorting the capacitor, if the superconducting wire warms back to normal, you get your magnetic energy back, as a lot of heat in a small space, and that can be impressive.

    Again, not in the more normal transformer  sort of case luckily.

    Mike.