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How many official electrical  reports of fatalities do we have in the U.K. from wiring accessories being splashed in bathrooms or shower rooms? Abroad people have been killed when dropping something into an occupied bath such as a phone charger. But here in the U.K?

 

Z.

Your point being, what we do here works because there are few, if any, and those cases being where people run extension leads into their bathroom?

I did try and look into this in the early 2000s, when I wired a bathroom here to the VDE standards of the day so we could have  a full power schucko socket near the sink in our own home.  

At the time the little data available suggested that in the UK we have a similar number of  fatal exploding hairdryer accidents, but like a game of cluedo, these are in the bedroom rather than the bathroom, and in all cases it is mostly mangled cords. Bathtub electrocution  is very rare, so rare as to be a non-issue in countries that do permit sockets in the bathroom, which is most of 230V land.

I note that the most recent  BS7671 DPC was looking to reduce the 3m to 2.5m.  I did comment actually that it may be clearer not to faff with the numerical value, but to remove the number  altogether and to replace it with something indicating intent, such as ‘out of reach’ or ‘where splashing is unlikely’. 

“ In zone 2: switchgear, accessories incorporating switches or socket-outlets shall not be installed with the exception of:

(i)switches and socket-outlets of SELV circuits, the safety source being installed outside zones 0, 1 and 2, and

(ii)shaver supply units complying with BS EN 6 1 558-2-5. Except for SELV socket-outlets complying with Section 414 and shaver supply units complying with BS EN61558-2-5, socket-outlets are prohibited within a distance of 2.5 m horizontally from the boundary of zone 1.”

Used to be 3m, clearly post brexit arms are shorter. ;-) 

The key thing to not get lost is not the compliance or not with the letter of the regs,  but is to be quite sure the installation safe for the way it will be used .. 

Mike.

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How many official electrical  reports of fatalities do we have in the U.K. from wiring accessories being splashed in bathrooms or shower rooms? Abroad people have been killed when dropping something into an occupied bath such as a phone charger. But here in the U.K?

 

Z.

In the USA I believe it’s actually required by regulation to install a socket next to the sink. 

Most of continental Europe has sockets by the sink. 

The UK is is very strict on this, but you have to wonder why and if there is actually a benefit with the use of RCDs. 

I have a 230V socket outside of my own bathroom door and it’s used for hairdriers, inside the bathroom, every day and I have seen this is countless properties. 

Actually my own view is that its more dangerous to traipse a cable across the landing, causing a trip hazard, than it would be having the socket by the sink. 

vantech: 
 

ZIn the USA I believe it’s actually required by regulation to install a socket next to the sink. 

Most of continental Europe has sockets by the sink. 

The UK is is very strict on this, but you have to wonder why and if there is actually a benefit with the use of RCDs. 

It is wholly incorrect to think that RCDs will protect you.

Consider someone immersed in a plastic bath, with plastic drain, and not touching taps (or taps have plastic pipes), and a Class II product is dropped in the bath.

There is NO ‘residual current’. The OCPD will operate, but it is likely the person in the bath will be seriously injured or killed before that happens, as the electricity tracks through salt straight to the person's trunk, as it's the most conductive thing in the water, to get from Line to Neutral.

As I said, no protective conductor, no alternative path other than L-N, so an RCD is wholly ineffective. This is not a theory … it was proven in an investigation after two children died in a bath in Germany after a shaver on charge from the mains fell into the water and killed them both.

I have a 230V socket outside of my own bathroom door and it’s used for hairdriers, inside the bathroom, every day and I have seen this is countless properties. 

That's quite common … also for mains powered hair clippers

Actually my own view is that its more dangerous to traipse a cable across the landing, causing a trip hazard, than it would be having the socket by the sink. 

No argument from me.

Incidentally, in the case in Germany (and a similar one in France), the courts did not blame the electrical installation for the deaths … but lack of supervision by the parents. However, I'm sure we'd all agree that if something can be done to help prevent such accidents, it should be.

gkenyon: 
 

vantech: 
 

ZIn the USA I believe it’s actually required by regulation to install a socket next to the sink. 

Most of continental Europe has sockets by the sink. 

The UK is is very strict on this, but you have to wonder why and if there is actually a benefit with the use of RCDs. 

It is wholly incorrect to think that RCDs will protect you.

Consider someone immersed in a plastic bath, with plastic drain, and not touching taps (or taps have plastic pipes), and a Class II product is dropped in the bath.

There is NO ‘residual current’. The OCPD will operate, but it is likely the person in the bath will be seriously injured or killed before that happens, as the electricity tracks through salt straight to the person's trunk, as it's the most conductive thing in the water, to get from Line to Neutral.

As I said, no protective conductor, no alternative path other than L-N, so an RCD is wholly ineffective. This is not a theory … it was proven in an investigation after two children died in a bath in Germany after a shaver on charge from the mains fell into the water and killed them both.

I have a 230V socket outside of my own bathroom door and it’s used for hairdriers, inside the bathroom, every day and I have seen this is countless properties. 

That's quite common … also for mains powered hair clippers

Actually my own view is that its more dangerous to traipse a cable across the landing, causing a trip hazard, than it would be having the socket by the sink. 

No argument from me.

They afford some protection, and certainly enough for most situations - fully agree there are of course instances where they may not offer any protection, but for the most part they do - the instance where a shaver fell into a bath is just as likely to happen with a blow drier dragged into the bathroom from the nearest 13amp. 

gkenyon: 
There is NO ‘residual current’. The OCPD will operate, but it is likely the person in the bath will be seriously injured or killed before that happens, as the electricity tracks through salt straight to the person's trunk, as it's the most conductive thing in the water, to get from Line to Neutral.

As I said, no protective conductor, no alternative path other than L-N, so an RCD is wholly ineffective. This is not a theory … it was proven in an investigation after two children died in a bath in Germany after a shaver on charge from the mains fell into the water and killed them both.

I am struggling with this. We have in the bath water a couple of electrodes. The bather is in contact with neither of them. How can the bather be a lower resistance between them than the bath water?

he or she is not necessarily lower res than the bath water, nor do they need to be. But if current is flowing in the water, there is a voltage gradient along the current path. Put a hand in and you can tap into that at any point along the resistance, rather in the manner of the slider of old style school rheostat.

 Now, if you have one end of your body near one electrode and the other end of your body near the other, you get a significant belt. Much like step voltages on wet ground, but larger contact areas.

As you fill more of the bath with body you displace the parallel water path, and the problem gets worse.

However if the the two electrodes are close together, and you keep well away from them, you only see a  small fraction of the terminal voltage.

M.

Chris Pearson: 
 

gkenyon: 
There is NO ‘residual current’. The OCPD will operate, but it is likely the person in the bath will be seriously injured or killed before that happens, as the electricity tracks through salt straight to the person's trunk, as it's the most conductive thing in the water, to get from Line to Neutral.

As I said, no protective conductor, no alternative path other than L-N, so an RCD is wholly ineffective. This is not a theory … it was proven in an investigation after two children died in a bath in Germany after a shaver on charge from the mains fell into the water and killed them both.

I am struggling with this. We have in the bath water a couple of electrodes. The bather is in contact with neither of them. How can the bather be a lower resistance between them than the bath water?

Electricity does not flow in ionic solutions in exactly the same way it does in solid conductors. 

AS mapj1 pointed out also, there are voltage gradients … but it is slightly more complicated than that. The presence of the body distorts the electric field in various ways, some to do with “salt” (ion) concentrations. 

Add to that, that the body resistance is lowered, and there are a lot of pathways for the current to enter the body - it's not simply hand-to-feet or hand-to-hand shock.

Finally, it may not be ventricular fibrillation that kills someone, but drowning due to muscle spasms and lack of control. 

IN fact, limitation of voltage in immersed situations is not a guarantee of protection against electric shock - a few volts is all it takes. IEC TR 60947-5 recommends that, whatever the operating voltage, current limiting (at a very few mA - strong muscular reactions occur at as little as 5 mA) is the only feasible option for equipment intended for use where people are immersed in water.

gkenyon: 
 

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How many official electrical  reports of fatalities do we have in the U.K. from wiring accessories being splashed in bathrooms or shower rooms? Abroad people have been killed when dropping something into an occupied bath such as a phone charger. But here in the U.K?

 

Z.

Your point being, what we do here works because there are few, if any, and those cases being where people run extension leads into their bathroom?

Ah! A question mark. What we do does indeed work for safety. But I think that these days with modern methods of construction we may be going overboard. Decades ago with iron baths, many accessible metal pipes and big metal radiators, using water pipes as the main earth electrode, and towel rails in bathrooms the electrical risks  were greater than today. Who sprays the shower rose upwards? And if they do is it really an electrical risk even with an ordinary L.E.D. light fitting. The risk of a cracked glass bulb is much reduced due to them fading away.

Many modern bathrooms and shower rooms have an all insulated tub or shower tray. The floor is covered with vinyl or a synthetic carpet, and pipes are mainly plastic or inaccessible. An upstairs bathroom is placed on an insulating wooden floor. We don't really consider many of these aspects.

I think that modern bathrooms and shower rooms are inherently safer these days due to modern construction methods.

And full R.C.D. protection affords a very good safety provision.

Perhaps a kitchen sink is a more risky place where an electric appliance like an autojug kettle/base may drop into the full bowl of water. The sad example given by Graham above is a very rare and avoidable event. Of course if the charger had been fed via a U.K. double wound isolating transformer from a shaver outlet the deaths may not have happened. Or would they?

White Dual Voltage Shaver Socket | Now At Victorian Plumbing.co.uk

Z.