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"potentially dangerous" or improvement required re: missing covers on conduit inspection fittings

psychicwarrior
Taking in to account the guided definition of "potentially dangerous" and any IP rating compromise (and loss of mechanical protection):


If I proffered that missing covers/lids from a steel conduit inspection fittings was not worthy of being described as potentially dangerous, would you agree, or argue it was ?


Would you be persuaded one way or the other depending on the 'accessibility' factor ?


My take: if its out of the way from fingers etc, then i'd say not potentially dangerous. If it was readily accessible for touch/impact, then I would be thinking otherwise.


Reading back on some [I think] well known guidance regarding periodic inspections, there is a bit regarding where cable sheathing is not taken into an enclosure leaving the basic protected conductors exposed to touch; in some conditions it is considered as not "potentially dangerous" but only requiring "improvement" and from past threads this has provoked some interesting debate and opinions; is there a difference from these situations to the above missing lids question (or even indeed trunking lid missing or unused cable access holes in trunking) ?


Hope you are all keeping well and enjoying the 'new' forum ! :-)

Cheers

Habs
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    BESA boxes have two threaded holes for cover fixing. If a cover is meant to be fitted then fit one I say. Cables are not fully contained if not fully enclosed. Keep everything in that is supposed to be kept in, and everything out that is supposed to be kept out. Fit covers.


    Z.
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    521.10.1. "Non-sheathed cables for fixed wiring shall be ENCLOSED in conduit, ducting or trunking......"


    If BESA box covers are missing the cables are NOT enclosed.


    Z.
  • 0
    @zoom - I think the question/consideration was about such being "potentially dangerous" (with nothing else out of place with everything else) or just an improvement, as opposed to whether it is a non-compliance or not or how easy to remedy etc.   :-)


    One could argue that most things could be "potentially dangerous" at some degree - but in this case...is it ! 


    As mentioned, some documents/texts most will likely have seen (e.g. electrical safety first), describe a cable where the sheath does not enter the enclosure leaving the insulated conductors visible is a C3, unless accessible and/or into a metal enclosure or something like that, when it would be a C2. How is that different to the visible but not totally enclosed in this topic, taking another angle.


    It is all about 'safety' issues really, though I've seen some texts that advocate a C2 for a missing 'safety electrical connection' tag - which some might say is stretching it a bit...as its not immediately dangerous but some later fault or action may render it so !


    In any case, generally one may decide to apply the worst case assessment, as then there is some perceived cover if no one does anything about it and something happens :-)  Perhaps that what these texts/documents base on.


    The general default answer is to apply ones experienced judgement, but I still reckon on some things there will be some variety and anyone can construct an angle to argue something is or isn't potentially dangerous... so one might say its the concensus amongst experience that one might accept. So what it is.... for a lid missing as described...taking into account IP requirements, lack of mechanical protection, not fully enclosed etc.   (no answer required  lol).

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    psychicwarrior:

    @zoom - I think the question/consideration was about such being "potentially dangerous" (with nothing else out of place with everything else) or just an improvement, as opposed to whether it is a non-compliance or not or how easy to remedy etc.   :-)


    One could argue that most things could be "potentially dangerous" at some degree - but in this case...is it ! 


    As mentioned, some documents/texts most will likely have seen (e.g. electrical safety first), describe a cable where the sheath does not enter the enclosure leaving the insulated conductors visible is a C3, unless accessible and/or into a metal enclosure or something like that, when it would be a C2. How is that different to the visible but not totally enclosed in this topic, taking another angle.


    It is all about 'safety' issues really, though I've seen some texts that advocate a C2 for a missing 'safety electrical connection' tag - which some might say is stretching it a bit...as its not immediately dangerous but some later fault or action may render it so !


    In any case, generally one may decide to apply the worst case assessment, as then there is some perceived cover if no one does anything about it and something happens :-)  Perhaps that what these texts/documents base on.


    The general default answer is to apply ones experienced judgement, but I still reckon on some things there will be some variety and anyone can construct an angle to argue something is or isn't potentially dangerous... so one might say its the concensus amongst experience that one might accept. So what it is.... for a lid missing as described...taking into account IP requirements, lack of mechanical protection, not fully enclosed etc.   (no answer required  lol).


    As others have said it depends upon the location of the offending open BESA boxes.


    1. It is not compliant.


    2. The installation is not complete.


    3. The cables are not enclosed.


    4. A good thing is that you have noticed the situation.


    5. C2 "Potentially dangerous" should be acted upon as a matter of urgency.


    6. Or C3 "Improvement recommended" should be given due consideration.


    It is up to you.


    Z.



     




     

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    mapj1:

    But the advice from the likes of NAPIT is intended for use by those who are unsure what to do and need to look it up, and must therefore must be worded as generic advice to cover all possible cases, and that must include the worst - so in all cases what it recommends  will be safe, but sometimes it will be excessively strict. This is the weakness /strength of a back and white "code"  approach - the strength is that it gives consistent results, the price is that it sometimes requires some nugatory work.

     




    Yes, the black and white, prescriptive approach helps one to take a view when the 'inspector' isn't sure of their practical knowledge and experience. Perhaps a basic book of codes might be more suitable as a training guide........


    Legh

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    Wouldn't that be a BIG book Legh?


    Z.
  • 0
    @zoom - apologies (and to all) it came across as me asking for someone to tell me what I should be putting. I was not. I had already formed my view before posting. My intention was something else :-)


    any way - if you fancy, any one, have a go here:  https://periodiccodes.co.uk/the-game/


    I happened upon this whilst searching back for previous info/posts etc.
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    No apology required old mate. The Electrical Safety First article is very interesting and a good guide for the new or inexperienced, and a good reminder for the old forgetful as well.


    Z.
  • 0
    I would Code 2 for the main reason that the covers are more likely to be reinstated plus single insulation shouldn’t be on show, it’s one of my pet hates especially on meter tails. Plus never a good sign when lids are missing especially trunking, normally means someone has taken little care working on the installation.
  • 0
    When the government introduced the Home Condition Reports they had to be compiled online using set phrases and descriptions, the intention was that the same report would be produced regardless of who the inspector was. There was to be no expression of style or individuality by the inspector, they were to be a stock reports and the outcome should have been the same regardless of who produced it.


    I have been using the NAPIT Codebreakers book as a reference for some time, there are a few things I question, but the idea of there being a standard reference is a good one.


    Andy

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