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How many GCSEs?

At a meeting of parents it was mentioned that back when they were at secondary school it was common to take only 8 or 9 subjects for GCSE whereas in more recent years students often take 12 or 13 GCSEs.


How many GCSEs do you think is sufficient and appropriate for a career in engineering and how many is overkill?

  • Mark Tickner:


    I talk a lot of parents who push their children to be Doctors or Lawyers, or similar high paying jobs.  To be honest, I can't blame them for this; as a parent I want the best for my little one too.  But as a culture we do still need musicians, writers and artists. 




    Something to take into account is that the obsession with medicine and other professional careers amongst south Asians is a means of moving up the social ladder and escaping poverty. When the first generation of south Asians arrived from the Indian Subcontinent they were overwhelmingly employed in low paid and menial jobs - many of which have now vanished due to the decline in heavy and traditional industries. The tactic was generally successful and now a sizeable fraction of second and third generation south Asians have entered the middle and professional classes of society.


    You make a valid point regarding musicians, writers, and artists but bear in mind that immigrant communities have their own art forms that are not always covered by the British education system and had the south Asians decided to study the arts rather than professional careers then it would probably not have benefitted them economically.  




    We also need people who can do all the lower paying service jobs. 




    How does this square with automation and the fact that there is also a glut of low skilled people fighting for low paid service jobs in Britain at the moment? In fact amongst the south Asians there's almost a culture of professional career or bust (end up working as a taxi driver or in a takeaway) with little in the way of a middle ground.



     

  • As a sideline I will mention that the English school system of the 1950s to the 1970s operated on a principle of whittling down the numbers by making failures of children.


    Children in Y6 of primary school were effectively put at an intersection in life when they were subjected to the 11 plus test, which determined whether they attended a secondary modern or a grammar school. Those who failed the 11 plus ended up at a secondary modern where they took CSEs (which basically said I went to school) then became factory fodder or office dogsbodies. Those who passed the 11 plus ended up at a grammar school where they took O Levels which could be used to access A Levels leading to university, or more respectable careers. The 11 plus test was (and still is) mathematics and English so talent in other subjects like history, science, music, and foreign languages do not count for anything.


    Those who passed the 11 plus test and attended grammar school faced a second hurdle. That was O Levels were norm referenced rather than criterion referenced so the grades were rationed. It was simply impossible for more than a certain percentage to a achieve an A grade no matter how much effort they put in. The situation changed around 1980 towards a somewhat criterion referenced system which continued into GCSEs.


    Why was this system used? In order to protect salaries of professionals - and much of the middle class - by restricting the supply of people with qualifications. The establishment knows that people can be high achievers if they are provided with the opportunity to achieve. Education reforms since 1980 have shown this where there has been a marked increase in the number of students getting high GCSE grades and consequently attending university (although numbers for certain academically rigorous courses have not always increased) resulting in salary deflation and too many graduates for not enough graduate jobs. It's also a consequence of the decline in heavy industry and other unskilled and semi-skilled jobs which absorbed the 'failures' from the school system in decades gone by.
  • I'm not convinced that there should be a minimum quantity of qualifications, other than decent grades in the subjects required by the employer for the chosen career path. For example, somebody with a keen interest in nursing would be expected to have a good grounding in biology, chemistry and maths. Though it's not really fair to expect school age students to know what they're going to do with the rest of their careers - possibly pursuing subjects that have no relevance to their eventual employment. But that's a subject for another debate.


    When I left school in the mid 80's, I seem to remember there was a "core" of Maths, English, one science, one foreign language and one craft. This was what most employers demanded back then, and you were expected to achieve decent pass marks in these five subjects. Anything over and above this was a bonus. These "extra" qualifications were the student's choice from the "options". In my case, the extra options were two further sciences, arithmetic, an additional language and art (yes, art - but only because I couldn't decide which "enrichment" option to take, they all seemed like a waste of time, so I left it blank and was slotted into the subject - and having absolutely zero artistic talent, and even less interest, I achieved a grade that was well towards the wrong end of the alphabet).


    I'd agree with the earlier post about "quality over quantity", but my own feeling is that many exams are simply a memory test, and as such aren't a true indicator of a student's ability. In the "real world", you're not expected to recall formulae, passages of scripture, etc. I've known many people who are very intelligent, very capable, and have done very well in their professions, but who go to pieces in exams.
  • All structured learning has value. It doesn't matter what you study as long as you benefit from the process and eventually have a strategy for development.

    My ex wife took 12 'O' levels in the arts; 4 'A' levels in Greek, Latin, Ancient History and the Use of English then went on to do Classics and later, Articles. She's now a partner in a Law firm looking after, from what I can gather, copyrights, patients and litigation and company policy for engineering companies.

    I recently did a GCSE, over a weekend, in Safe Guarding. Then I thought, why? The essence of that qualification is a consideration and a duty of care for your fellow man and those who are weaker than yourself which is, or should be, a basic moral code for life taught by your parents.

    So what did I learn? Well, the feedback from my mentor was that it was a refreshing read and that the work appeared to be original. Told me alot about the other lecturers who were obligued to obtain the same certificate


    Legh

  • Howard Warren:

    When I left school in the mid 80's, I seem to remember there was a "core" of Maths, English, one science, one foreign language and one craft. This was what most employers demanded back then, and you were expected to achieve decent pass marks in these five subjects. Anything over and above this was a bonus. These "extra" qualifications were the student's choice from the "options". In my case, the extra options were two further sciences, arithmetic, an additional language and art (yes, art - but only because I couldn't decide which "enrichment" option to take, they all seemed like a waste of time, so I left it blank and was slotted into the subject - and having absolutely zero artistic talent, and even less interest, I achieved a grade that was well towards the wrong end of the alphabet).




    Foreign languages were not compulsory for O Level at my mother's school back in the 1980s. Arts subjects were only available to students who could demonstrate a reasonable degree of talent in them in Y9 in order to reduce the number of dossers.