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When were ceiling rose junction boxes invented?

When were ceiling rose junction boxes invented? They appear to be post WW2 as I have been unable to find any that are older. The ceiling roses I have from the 1920s and 30s are either purely mechanical or have terminals just for live and neutral for the light fitting. Were ceiling rose junction boxes intended as a cost saving feature when constructing houses?
  • Arran,

    I don't know the answer but I suspect that it is linked to the change in connection practice. I grew up in a house dating from 1890 that in the 60's and 70's still had the original wiring from whenever they fitted electric power (1910?), with independent fuses for each light. When my bedroom light wiring failed, I found it was a spur from the fuse box with single core wires, one via the wall switch, which I replaced with modern wiring. (Don't ask what the original was - possibly ceramic insulation covered in cloth and the conductor might have been iron as it certainly wasn't copper.)

    The modern method is to have a loop circuit which takes the power to each light via the ceiling rose with a spur going to the wall switch to provide the switching capability. This arrangement requires additional connections and the ceiling rose is a sensible place to fit them. I therefore think that if you find out when the practice changed you will find when the ceiling roses changed.

    Alasdair

  • Alasdair Anderson:

    The modern method is to have a loop circuit which takes the power to each light via the ceiling rose with a spur going to the wall switch to provide the switching capability. This arrangement requires additional connections and the ceiling rose is a sensible place to fit them. I therefore think that if you find out when the practice changed you will find when the ceiling roses changed.




    I asked a building electrician some time ago who verbally informed me that the commonest arrangement of wiring ceiling lights in new build houses in the 1930s was a circuit which took the power from the consumer unit to each ceiling light in turn although radial wiring of lights was also used. The cables terminated in junction boxes inside the ceiling cavity with a cable to the switch and another cable to the light fitting. It requires a separate junction box and ceiling rose for each light fitting. This arrangement is still used today and is increasingly found in new builds because it is easier to change light fittings than if ceiling rose junction boxes are used as there is only one cable to the light fitting accessible from the room rather than three. Ceiling rose junction boxes became common in new installations around the time that lath and plaster ceilings were replaced with plasterboard.



     

  • My Fowlers Electrical Engineer’s Pocket Book 1946 (effectively pre-war) cites as its source of illustrations and wiring diagrams for lighting, AP Lundberg and Sons Ltd of London. The illustrations seems to show two pin sockets an plugs. Presumably allowing light fittings both on stands and ceiling suspended  to be moved around from room to room   


  • Roy Bowdler:
    My Fowlers Electrical Engineer’s Pocket Book 1946 (effectively pre-war) cites as its source of illustrations and wiring diagrams for lighting, AP Lundberg and Sons Ltd of London. The illustrations seems to show two pin sockets an plugs. Presumably allowing light fittings both on stands and ceiling suspended  to be moved around from room to room   




    I'm well aware that bayonet cap plugs existed to enable portable appliances to be powered from the lampholder of a ceiling light back when wall sockets were scarce, but I have not seen two pin sockets on ceilings. In some old houses 2A wall sockets were installed that were connected to the lighting circuit.



     

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Looking to the current version of BS 7671, this gives the product standard for modern ceiling roses as BS 67:1987 (1999), still confirmed current on the 1st May 2017.

    If you look to the BSI website at BS 67 the current version was published 27th February 1987, making it BS 67:1987 which corresponds to BS 7671.

    It's predecessor BS 67:1969 was published on the 20th June 1969, which was withdrawn on 31st December 1987, so approximately a 6 month overlap of the two.

    So I would suspect that the current method of loop at the light came in around 1969/70, so about the time of the metric amendment to the 14th Edition.
  • Paul,

    Following on from your comments I have had a look at the BSI website myself and have found the two editions of the standard you mention:
    BS 67:1987. Specification for ceiling roses.
    BS 67:1969. Specification for ceiling roses.

    However the BSI website also has the following earlier editions of the standard:
    BS 67:1938. Specification for two and three-terminal ceiling roses.
    BS 67:1929. Specification for two and three-plate ceiling roses.
    BS 67:1914. Specification for two and three-plate ceiling roses.

    I think this means we can conclude ceiling rose junction boxes were invented prior to 1914 (the invention would need to predate the production of the first standard) though it does not help in identifying the time the loop arrangement was introduced.

    Alasdair

    (By the way, if anyone is really interested you can still buy the 1914 edition of the standard from BSI......)


  • Alasdair Anderson: 
    BS 67:1969. Specification for ceiling roses.

    However the BSI website also has the following earlier editions of the standard:
    BS 67:1938. Specification for two and three-terminal ceiling roses.




    I make a guess somewhere between 1938 and 1969. Notice that the 1938 specification mentions two and three terminal ceiling roses. The ceiling rose junction boxes I'm referring to in the OP consist of 3 + 3 + 2 terminals along with an earth terminal.


    The loop wiring arrangement almost certainly predates the ceiling rose junction boxes as it was accomplished using a three terminal junction box with terminals for live, neutral, and switched live / power to the ceiling light. Earth was provided using a separate cable.



     

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Well done Alistair.

    Once I found the 1969 version, and there was no listing against the standard it "replaces", I didn't look any further, as I took it that previous standards would not have been similar due to a major change in scope or principles or something like that.

  • Does anybody know where to find old catalogues of wiring accessories as this will help to identify approximately when ceiling rose junction boxes first became commercially available?