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Youngest Chartered Engineers

Having received the latest copy of Member News, I noted that there was an article about the new youngest CEng.  Now, obviously it isn’t a race to get CEng and it doesn’t really matter at what age you achieve it.


But it did tweak my interest to wonder what the ages (not names, let’s keep some privacy) of the, say, 16 youngest people to achieve CEng was.  Assuming the IET kept that type of information.  I don’t suppose that this information is available?


I’d imagine it would be a challenge to get the youngest age that much more under 26.  If a 3 year BEng can be compressed to 2 years, then possibly a MEng can be compressed down to 3.  Assuming a compressed degree could achieve accreditation then that might lower it another year.  However, the competences take as long as they take and it’s about being in the right place and grabbing the right opportunities.
  • To Mark's point, and recognising this is NOT a competition, but I gained chartered status at 25 years and 3 months, back in the mid 90s. It was helped by a very intense training period and early exposure to positions of high responsibility. I then went on to gain Eur Ing status a year later whilst working in Paris on a tri-national programme.
  • I recall going to a Younger Member's committee training event (followed by Lecture and Dinner) in the mid 90's and there was a newly awarded CEng who was presented as being the youngest at that point.  I wonder if that was you, Ken?
  • The youngest I have encountered within the IET was only 4 Days past his 25th birthday when registered. The PRI Interview having been held some weeks earlier. I have seen a 24 year old in Engineering Council Statistics but I don’t know anything about that story.


    Our CEng applied for a level 3 Technician Apprenticeship at the age of 17 and left school to take it up, on a promise from his employer to support his progression.  He completed an NVQ2, NVQ3, ONC, HNC, BEng 1st Class Hons and MSc with Distinction over a period of 7 years by part-time/distance learning. He was appointed as a “junior” engineer after the four year apprenticeship, then moved for promotion to another employer in the sector two years later.


    Clearly such a pathway is intensive and would have involved long-hours, sacrifices and self-discipline, but he wasn’t constrained by the “leisurely” timetable of a full-time academic programme.


    I have also come across an example of someone who qualified as an contracting electrician before becoming a full-time student, thus being able to support themselves comfortably and continuing to gain experience by part-time work.  I don’t have the details of their registration age, but they were much better placed than a graduate with no experience and made rapid progress. I anticipate that if Engineering Degree Apprenticeships grow in the way that the Government hopes, this mid-twenties milestone will become more common again. Many years ago the age of 25 was “suggested” as a minimum (Age 18 + 3yr Degree + 2 Years Initial Professional Development + 2 years Responsible Experience).  There were 2-3000 CEng under 30 the last time I looked. I saw a GP the other day and he seemed under 30.


    If you’re good enough you’re old enough!  There are many young and not so young engineers, who think of CEng as an “honour for distinguished achievement”, awarded in middle age, when it is intended to be a threshold milestone, achievable after around 7-8 years of learning and experience.              



  • I absolutely endorse the sentiments in Roy's last para. Capability is a far better measure than so-called experience. I am fortunate to work with some outstanding young engineers, but also get frustrated with some older people that seem to have forgotten much of their learning, or at least choose not to put it into practise.


    Mark, I don't think it was me at that dinner as I suspect I was in Paris at that time building "entente cordial"! :)
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    In my region, all Chatered Engineers in the government were attained the status by 25 years old. Because they were graduate engineers at 21 years old, and promote to Assistant Engineers in 2 years, and apply for Chartered Engineers in another 2 years. They got promoted to Engineers, and their salaries are doubled compares to Assistant Engineer posts.....:-)
  • Thanks Cheong,


    It is interesting how different “norms” and expectations have become established around the same milestone.  The situation that you describe of gaining CEng around four years into career following an accredited degree reflects the experience of a substantial proportion of Chartered Engineers. Some of the “high-flyers” have taken this as a foundation/benchmark on which to build a career in corporate management, the law or another related field. By tradition we don’t ask them to keep proving their detailed technical skills, we have welcomed their ongoing contribution as “engineers by training”. However for many years now the average age of a new CEng registrant has been late thirties (ie a “20 year veteran”), so the experience of a significant proportion of Chartered Engineer registrants this century is different.  


    I haven’t conducted a formal study of this, but the trend creates issues and difficulties around consistency that I won’t explore here.  What I have suggested is that we try to “normalise” the idea that every aspiring engineer should seek to professionally benchmark themselves by the age of 25 at the latest. For some that would lead to the award of Chartered Engineer and for others a development plan would be needed ,perhaps with a form of recognition "banked".  At present some are encouraged by their employer to gain CEng, some just drift along meaning to get round to it eventually and some just assume that they will be rejected because they “don’t have the right degree” or “aren’t posh enough” etc.  Some professional institutions seem rather better than others at getting members chartered at earlier ages, which creates inconsistency and potential iniquity.                 



  • Roy Bowdler:
    Some professional institutions seem rather better than others at getting members chartered at earlier ages, which creates inconsistency and potential iniquity.                 

     




    I'm interested in why you believe this Roy. We are always told that CEng is awarded on competence, not by age or time served, so why does it create inconsistency and potential iniquity?

  • Engineering is an oddity when it comes to professional registration.


    Most professions have a well-defined path to registration.  It will probably combine a mixture of an academic course and structured on-the-job training.  These could be sequential or mixed together.


    Engineering has BEng and MEng degrees, but then it stops.  People go out into the world of industry and start doing stuff.  They get whatever training their employer is willing to pay for.  So instead of structured training, we get UKSpec, which essentially says that you're qualified to be a Chartered Engineer once you are already doing the things that Chartered Engineers do.  That might be within 5 years of graduating, or it might be never.  And if you are already doing the things that Chartered Engineers do, then actually applying for it is just an excuse to get a "badge" - it doesn't actually allow you to do anything you weren't already doing.


    Thinking about it, a similar thing goes for management.  There is such a thing as a Chartered Manager, but I wonder what proportion of managers ever bother to apply.

  • Lee Nelson:




    Roy Bowdler:
    Some professional institutions seem rather better than others at getting members chartered at earlier ages, which creates inconsistency and potential iniquity.                 




    I'm interested in why you believe this Roy. We are always told that CEng is awarded on competence, not by age or time served, so why does it create inconsistency and potential iniquity?



    I won't give names or dates, but I have heard that a young engineer applied to their Institution for CEng and was told "you are too young". The therefore applied to be a member of another Institution and applied for CEng and was able to become CEng at an age below the minimum required in the original Institution. As Roy said, some professional institutions seem rather better than others.

  • Lee I see that others , have answered your question.


    To keep it simple many Chartered Engineer recognitions are awarded by completion of academic qualifications, followed by some training, followed by some responsibility, with a final check that all the UK-SPEC competences have been addressed. Professional Institutions may accredit each of these steps and conduct the final assessment.  If you are fortunate enough to be admitted to an accredited degree programme and then gain employment with an employer who has accredited their training with a professional institution, then you can reasonably expect with average diligence to be CEng by 25 to 27.


    To borrow a golfing metaphor, this is the fairway. Minor mishits may result in having to hack out of a bunker, but if you deviate from the fairway the grass gets longer and eventually becomes a jungle. For many years “out of bounds” was close to the edge of the fairway and there was a 10 year penalty for being out of bounds, after which you could be allowed back if the captain passed your stroke as suitable on the practice ground. Things have become a little more forgiving in recent years. So if you are coached to successfully stay on the fairway for a round, then you are deemed OK for life.  If you didn’t get into the club, or get the right coaching, then you risk a very long round or possibly being excluded altogether. First impressions are important!  In the context of this analogy, competence is the score, so completing the course is a starting measure, but how many over par is allowed, is a handicap system in operation, is there a dress code, equipment restrictions, local rules and unofficial concessions agreed between players? Everyone can stand back and admire the very top pros, but many of the average players may feel that they haven’t had  a fair rub of the green when the prizes are given out.


    My suggestion was simply to ensure that every member gets some instruction and coaching then works on improving their game. Once they can play to a reasonable standard we recognise them as proper players and encourage them to improve some more. We can set the score required to be considered a “master” wherever we choose, but if we make it too difficult and belittle those who haven’t made that mark, then they will stop playing and the club will no longer be credible or viable.  


    When I first learned about competence, an example used was the driving test, where you were expected to demonstrate a specified standard of performance under reasonably controlled conditions, but how you reached that that standard wasn’t prescribed. What we have is a hybrid form, with different examiners placing the emphasis in different areas, or allowed to introduce some extras of their own.  What Chartered Engineers do is complex and enormously varied, so a system has been evolved to measure it in a simplified way.  It seems to work reasonably well on the whole for people who clearly deserve to be recognised through following an ideal pathway, but there are many uncertainties otherwise.  


    We wouldn’t have debated all of this for generations if the answer was a simple one , but wherever a perception of winners and losers is introduced , ill feeling won’t be far away.  Also if something doesn’t seem to have “face validity” then people won’t trust it.  So for example, if an employer is told that someone that they consider to be their best engineer is actually in PEI eyes their worst, because different attributes are given different value, then an obvious gap exists. In earlier more deferential times, most people just accepted qualifications at face value, or if even they didn’t, they had no means of arguing.

    I don't think the intent of this thread was to generate this type of debate, so I will just reiterate my earlier comment "if you're good enough then you'r old enough". So to any 25 year old aspiring to Chartered Engineer - Good luck! As was said earlier this isn't a race, but its good to set challenging goals. We just don't all have to get round Amen Corner without dropping a shot ?.