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Ohhh Jeremy Corbyn

Seriously. Are there any engineers who are passionate about Jeremy Corbyn?

  • I'm sure there. And some who are enthusiastic about Jacob Rees-Mogg. Please understand that engineering is a profession not a lifestyle choice.
  • I'm afraid that I'm not particularly passionate about any politicians at the moment. We need a few more ex-engineers in harness; some people with a grasp of how the world works and the ability to make sensible decisions based on the requirements of industry and the needs of the general population. But I don't think we should be party political on this forum though?

  • David Parr:

    But I don't think we should be party political on this forum though?




    You have missed the point. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party are far from being synonymous with each other. The reality is that Jeremy Corbyn is a maverick who is not really in control of the Labour Party; is despised by most MPs, large numbers of councillors, and swathes of middle of the road and traditional blue collar Labour voters; and has a messianic cult following that is most acute amongst young hipster types and students from London and other trendy places.


    Almost nobody who was going to vote Labour under previous leaders said that they were going to vote for Kinnock, Brown, or Milliband, and it was only marginally higher for Blair. They said that they were going to vote Labour. This time round anybody who supports Corbyn says that they are voting for Corbyn even though in reality (outside of Islington North) it's for some local MP that more often than not they know nothing about and can't even name!


    I can't really say that I have met any engineers who think highly of Jeremy Corbyn. Even an older lifelong Labour voter is totally turned off by him despite being on the economic left and a deep critic of Tony Blair. He says it's something to do with Corbyn being unpatriotic, anti-British, and he is not another Clement Attlee or even Michael Foot.



     

  • Arran, I think you'll find that your whole preceding post was party political, and I don't think it's good to debate such things under the heading of "Savoy Place Virtual Club".


    Just my opinion. frown
  • In my view he is a breath of fresh air, whilst his opponent is deeply vile, and in the US they have Bernie Sanders breathing some morality into politics. Unfortunately both electorates are subject to the media enforcement of the status quo and vested interests.

  • David Parr:

    We need a few more ex-engineers in harness; some people with a grasp of how the world works and the ability to make sensible decisions based on the requirements of industry and the needs of the general population.




    Hmmm...my experience has been that many people tend to become engineers because they can't cope with people smiley Project managers whose projects fall apart because they assume that everyone working on them is going to act rationally and logically. And the one I keep coming across in my present job, design engineers who believe that maintainers, operators and the general public are going to (amongst other things) a) read every instruction manual and then follow it and b) act thoughtfully and logically!


    On my occasional forays into schools - I don't do as many now as I used to - I am trying to emphasise that engineering is a team game, and whilst we can make space for those who struggle with that, we also welcome - and desperately need - those who like working with people, both colleagues and customers. It's not about building stuff for the sake of building stuff, it's about understanding and solving customers needs. When we achieve that glorious day when most engineers can actually listen to a customer and work out how to adapt their technology to meet what the customer needs, rather than complaining that the customer is stupid because they don't understand the technology, then we'll be ready to get involved in politics! smiley (Yes, I'm being very "broad brush" and OTT here, but a) it's Sunday morning so why not, and b) anyone who's rung too many IT "helplines" will know exactly where I'm coming from...)


    I tend to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy view (expressed in many other places as well of course) that anyone who wants to rule the universe shouldn't be allowed to.


    ​​​​ I do not see any value to anyone in declaring my party political views, or my views on any politician's personality, character, or overall political views, on this forum. If any UK politician takes an action that actually affects the world of engineering then that action of course is a reasonable matter for debate here. As the very sensible advice goes in how to support children developing: there is value in criticising specific behaviour, criticising a person is of no value whatsoever.


    Thanks,


    Andy


     

  • Just re-read that - oh dear, not one of my best posts, sorry about that. My excuse that I had to finish it rather rapidly (before going back and reading through it) as I was being reminded that we were supposed to be heading out for our Sunday morning outing to Waitrose, Screwfix and the council tip. Draw what conclusions you will from that as to my political leanings smiley (If it hadn't been such a nice day we'd have probably gone to Lidl too.)
  • The IET does has a duty to avoid any form of politically partisan activity. Although our position in advance of the EU referendum was felt by some members to have overstepped, it wasn’t party political as such. My personal opinion is that we should seek to minimise divisiveness within the institution, simply because our membership is an incredibly varied group of people , with a wide variety of skills, capabilities, backgrounds and perspectives, uniting with engineering and technology in common. By the very nature of being a professional body (or learned society) we will draw mainly from those in society with education and professional careers. This has created a landscape in which the governance of Engineering could reasonably be described as “conservative” and its commanding heights as “an establishment”. I would see any debate around this a perfectly legitimate, but not party-political.


    I have commented in these forums that I would like our (PEI family) focus to be strongly about our collective service to society, rather than competition between ourselves for relative status. Unfortunately IMHO, we have too often allowed our important role in influencing professional standards, to become conflated with elitism or snobbery. For that reason, I have also argued that we need an overall change of attitude if we wish to engage with those who currently eschew our proposition ,which is de-facto a majority of those who we aspire to represent.  


    Since the subject of the thread is Jeremy Corbyn personally, I thought that I might briefly explore why he isn’t a Chartered Engineer. I don’t remember ever having met him.

    His father David…became a brilliant electrical engineer working for the war effort… His mother was a female scientist, who later became a maths teacher… When the couple met, David Corbyn was an engineering apprentice living at his parents’ home… the Corbyns moved to Wiltshire, where David worked as an electrical engineer for Westinghouse Brake and Signals in Chippenham… In 1956, the family moved to Shropshire…Those surroundings helped nurture in Jeremy and his brothers a creative, inquisitive streak. Edward, the eldest brother, became a test engineer on Concorde, built a forge in the garden and tinkered with cars; Piers, who would become a meteorologist, constructed devices to study the solar system; Andrew, the second brother, became a geologist but later died….; Jeremy was the least scientific of the four, preferring to read.(source Daily Telegraph) 


    One our most vituperative recent contributor’s to these forums, a veteran IEng who in resigning complained of serious mistreatment both personally and for his category, was I understand for a time mentored by David Corbyn, which may have influenced his arguments.  


    I also spoke recently with someone who was at Grammar School with Jeremy, although not a friend. Coincidentally, I attended a reasonably nearby Comprehensive (ex Secondary Modern) some years later and the two are now linked in an academy foundation. He remembered Jeremy as a “difficult boy” with his own unpopular (in that school at least) left-wing ideas. Had he been more conventional and developed similar aptitudes to his siblings, then perhaps this thread would involve our leaders partaking in a lusty chorus of; “ Jeremy Corbyn! - He’s one of our own!” surprise


    The full Daily Telegraph article is here  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11818744/Jeremy-Corbyn-the-boy-to-the-manor-born.html  Since The Telegraph is strongly affiliated to The Conservative Party and also by coincidence to Engineering Council. I Sought in the interests of balance something from the more left-leaning Guardian and found this, which I think some IET members may find sympathy with   https://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2014/nov/21/university-engineering-departments-overalls-research I don’t know who the “anonymous academic” is.  Perhaps this led to the following response https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/01/21/engineering-giants-pledge-attract-diverse-staff/.  


    I was pleased recently to receive an invitation to this year’s talk “Inspired by the life and work of Sir Frederick Henry Royce” (an apprentice trained engineer) to be given by a leading Automotive Company’s Executive Director of Product Engineering  (also an apprentice trained engineer). I couldn’t remember meeting the speaker, although our paths probably fleetingly crossed a few years ago. Noticing also that the speaker did not feel a need to use post-nominals, I looked a little more into public profiles and newspaper articles. All seemed to be conspicuously lacking in formality or any sense of self-importance.  I wondered whether this might attract letters of complaint from Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells and others, that the speaker doesn’t appear to be a Chartered Engineer or wear a tie, but I am unaware of any having been received yetwink


    So deliberately side-stepping party politics and the personalities involved, Engineers and Technicians, both create wealth and serve society in many different ways. We should seek therefore to build common cause with mainstream politicians of all flavours, just like other stakeholders including business, trade associations, trades unions and educators. I see no good reason for us to seek to occupy politically partisan ground, or that of the aforementioned organisations. However we seem from my perspective to perhaps be lagging behind society in some of our attitudes and assumptions, perhaps because of the average age of our activists (similar to Jeremy Corbyn) and the similar social backgrounds that they tend to drawn from?


    I find it a little disappointing that  both young(ish) Prime Ministerships (Blair & Cameron) were followed by older rather than younger successors. I’m personally finding it difficult to develop the right level of respect for modern politicians, who often seem to have done little else, compared to those of my youth. Perhaps I'm just "rose-tinting" things like; war veteran records, post war development, 50s & 60s technological leadership, social modernisation, civil rights , industrial strife etc. or perhasp it is just the overall optimism of those times from a younger person's perspective ? indecision       



  • This discussion is not intended to be party political. There are large numbers of people who hero worship Jeremy Corbyn but were not previously loyal to Labour. There are also staunch lifelong Labour supporters and members who hate his guts.


    One criticism I have about Jeremy Corbyn is that he is so ambiguous on Brexit. He has a previous track record of being anti-EU but Momentum and the majority of his support base is pro-EU.

  • Roy Bowdler:
    We should seek therefore to build common cause with mainstream politicians of all flavours, just like other stakeholders including business, trade associations, trades unions and educators.




    How is mainstream defined? Nigel Farage had a huge support base and superhero status despite him not being an MP. Did the IET consider him to be a mainstream politician? What about Caroline Lucas who is an MP? Is Jeremy Corbyn mainstream or is he just a maverick with a messianic cult following?