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UKAPE

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UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Mar 20, 2019 3:14 pm

What is the effective power of this Association of Professional Engineers? Someone would " to exume", through the intercession of this UK Trade Union Organisation, the title of P.Eng, now of exclusive property,of the Engineering Council after the absorbing of the residual Members(about 500) of the Society of Professional Engineers (SPE) on April 2018 by the IET.
https://ukape.org.uk/ukape/

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Roy Bowdler on Mar 21, 2019 11:05 am

Luciano, I’m not sure that I exactly understand your question , but I spoke with someone involved in the transfer of PEng to Engineering Council last week. My understanding based on that; is that the PEng designation now belongs to Engineering Council and they must decide whether or when to make use of it.  If anyone is better informed than my hearsay and wishes to post to the forum, then please feel free.

Unite is a large UK Trades Union and the successor through merger to a number of others.  It is accurate for them to state that the IET explicitly does not engage in Trades Union activity, such as organising and representing employees to negotiate with employers, or affiliating to political parties.  During the early part of my career, my (huge) employer required all employees to be members of a Trades Union and I joined the “Electrician’s Union” EETPU, which was very focussed on enhancing the skills proposition of its members (hopefully leading to higher salaries), including operating its own highly regarded National Training Centre. As Trades Union membership declined in subsequent decades, mergers led to Unite.  This is another example of their activity https://www.the-esp.org.uk/about/corepartners/  or this  https://www.thebesa.com/employment-affairs/national-agreements/

I later transferred to the Electrical Power Engineers Association, a Trades Union which included as members, many senior managers in the industry including most Chartered Engineers. In the 1980s this was closely linked to the Association of Supervisory and Executive Engineers (ASEE), which affiliated to Engineering Council.  Governments of the era then demanded a clear separation between “Learned Societies” and “Trades Unions”. ASEE merged to become The Institution of Incorporated Executive Engineers (IIExE) which merged into the IIE, which gained a license to award CEng and eventually merged with IEE to become IET.  https://www.theiet.org/media/2608/iet-family-tree.pdf  The separate trades union element evolved into Prospect https://www.prospect.org.uk/

I have no idea what proportion of UK IET members are also members of a Trades Union. There is some overlap with the proposition of a Professional Institution, but to my knowledge no Trades Union is allowed to award "professional titles". In collaboration with employers, they help to define industry grading criteria, health and safety training requirements etc. Some of this is directly relevant to the IET, especially for Technicians. Does anyone wish to correct me or add any additional information?          

 

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Alasdair Anderson on Mar 21, 2019 11:35 am

Roy,
I certainly wouldn't presume to 'correct' you, but will highlight one aspect you didn't mention. I presume that those members of UKAPE who have been awarded PEng will retain this title regardless of any re-jigging that the EC introduces.

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Roy Bowdler on Mar 21, 2019 2:31 pm

Alasdair,

I don’t know if anyone with direct experience can answer this? I wasn’t aware that PEng (UK) was a “legal” title. However having asked around I have been informed that all the residual rights of the Society of Professional Engineers (SPE) have been acquired by Engineering Council and that anyone seeking to use any post-nominal now under their ownership risks legal action. So my attempt to answer your question would be; UKAPE didn’t own it and there is no residual entitlement for anyone who held it through SPE? My understanding is that professional titles were controlled by Privy Council, and certainly that anything called “Chartered” is?

An earlier thread addressed the issue of former overseas SPE members seeking to use an “international” designation, which they argued places it outside UK legal jurisdiction.  My comments advised IET members to exercise due diligence before paying money for any form of recognition, but otherwise I have “no axe to grind”. There has been some speculation about whether Engineering Council might want to use the title PEng in future, or just stop others from doing so?

Once again I’m happy to stand corrected in anyone knows better. There was an article in a recent edition of Member News welcoming approximately 250 SPE members who transferred over when it was closed down.

 

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Mar 22, 2019 8:40 pm

Dear Roy
 I don't personally think that the UK P.Eng Title can be in any way refounded and this because in this case not only the Engineering Council (EC) could at once take a strong legal action against this move but also, as far as I know, the same EC is next to legally protect the denomination 'Professional Engineer' in the UK, so only EC Registered Engineers could shortly use such a denomination! All the others may use alternative ones such as ' Consulting Engineer, Engineering Designer, etc.
The Engineering System will become similar to the Architecture one where anyone may practice architecture but without using the word 'Architect' which is legally protected by an Act of the UK Parliament. About the alleged legality or less of the UK SPE it was regularly registered with the UK Companies House as all the licit Engineering Professional Bodies MUST be:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00966239
http://www.arb.org.uk/public-information/regulate-use-title-architect/
 

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Moshe Waserman CEng on Mar 23, 2019 6:59 am

Alasdair Anderson:
Roy,
I certainly wouldn't presume to 'correct' you, but will highlight one aspect you didn't mention. I presume that those members of UKAPE who have been awarded PEng will retain this title regardless of any re-jigging that the EC introduces.

From what I seen so far UKAPE didn't award or register any designations.
The confusion maybe is with Society of Professional Engineers SPE that provided PEng UK to its members and fellows.  
The United Kingdom Association of Professional Engineers is the trade union for chartered and incorporated engineers and all professionals in engineering. It is the only union established exclusively for this purpose, and professionals are guaranteed to be in the majority.
No listing of its officers? 
 
Moshe Waserman BEET, MCGI, CEng MBCS, FEDIPAdvPra, MIET.

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Mar 23, 2019 8:11 am

Directly from the Engineering Council Governance

To "Mr " x" ( NOT ME! )

"Please be advised that under the transfer arrangements with the Society of Professional Engineers, the Engineering Council will have legal ownership of the postnominal P.Eng. As such, we will look to protect its use and stop its misuse.

 Please note also that if your organisation is not incorporated, individuals will be liable and responsible for the actions of that organisation. As such, any action we take against ‘The Society of Professional Engineers (International)’ or the ‘Institution of International Professional Engineers (IIPE)’ will be directed to named individuals in the first instance. 

 Furthermore, in addition to my request of 11 February concerning the constitutional instrument(s) that permit you to make these awards, can I also ask for evidence of the similar mechanisms that allow you to assess and confer qualifications and postnominals associated with the ‘Institution of International Professional Engineers (IIPE)’

 

Yours sincerely, "

 

Paul Bailey
Deputy Chief Executive | Operations Director

Tel       +44 (0) 20 3206 0500
Direct   +44 (0) 20 3206 0551
Email   
pbailey@engc.org.uk

Engineering Council
5th Floor, Woolgate Exchange, 25 Basinghall Street, London EC2V 5HA

Website: http://www.engc.org.uk

 

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Moshe Waserman CEng on Mar 24, 2019 4:00 pm

I'm not sure how this is related to UKAPE which is the title of this tread.
As to protecting the use of PEng or PEng (UK) from SPE, I'm not sure what it means.  I read in one of the treads that members of SPE can apply to IET to transfer their membership.
Fellows I don't know if they will be granted Fellowship.  I don't want to speculate. 
Are there any fellows of SPE who transferred to fellowship grade at IET?


 
Moshe Waserman BEET, MCGI, CEng MBCS, FEDIPAdvPra, MIET.

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Mar 24, 2019 4:50 pm

.According to the SPE / IET ACCORD in absorbing the SPE Membership, If you are a FELLOW in the SPE Membership you should be elected ( but only after succesfully passing through the IET further " fillter"  called  "Test Sample "!
As far as I know, no Italian Fellow of the SPE was until now elected as an IET one yet. For all others, I do not know how many (if any).

One further thing I can add is that whilst its parent Engineering body, the Society of Engineers. is remembered in the IET's website, the SPE was instead wholly ignored!...

https://www.theiet.org/membership/becoming-a-member/join-the-iet/fellow-membership/recently-elected-fellows/

https://www.theiet.org/publishing/library-archives/the-iet-archives/iet-history/the-society-of-engineers/

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Mar 24, 2019 5:24 pm

More:
http://www.highlightcomputer.com/perse.htm

http://www.btbl.co.uk/sites/default/files/Westminster%20City%20Council%20-%20Photograph%20Endorsement_0.pdf

Re: UKAPE

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Apr 4, 2019 11:35 am

Also:
https://slideplayer.com/slide/5736218/
https://www.nspe.org/resources/partners-and-state-societies/partners

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