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Alan Turing or Nikola Tesla

Just a thought, how might Alan Turing or Nikola Tesla fared in a Professional Review Interview?
  • What an interesting question! I'd need to re-read their respective biographies, but from what I remember (and I'm sure plenty of people will tell me if I've got this wrong ? ):


    Nikola Tesla I think would absolutely sail through CEng. There might be questions about C2 "Plan, budget, organise, direct and control tasks, people and resources." but everything else seems pretty much covered.


    Alan Turing: interesting and very relevant. A and B (and probably E) competences absolutely fine for CEng, but C & D? I honestly don't know. And I don't mean I don't think he would meet them, I just don't know at all. (But he would - I would sincerely hope - absolutely sail through FIET!)


    The point being that UKSpec as is it currently written is not just about competence - or brilliance - at the technical aspects of engineering, it is about having a set of skills that includes an active interest, understanding and involvement in the wider engineering organisation at a variety of levels. As an example, it is common to find in organisations an engineer who is brilliant and adding huge value, but their peers say said "I wouldn't let them anywhere near a client". Or "I wouldn't trust them with their own budget". I'm not saying these would apply to AT (I don't know), but the point - to my mind - is that technical brilliance does not necessarily align with UKSpec. It can do, but it doesn't need to. And that's fine. Multiple PhD's and visiting professorships tell you one thing, CEng tells you another, and both may be equally valuable to an organisation. And the fact that one person may not be able to achieve both does not devalue either that person or the certification.


    Sorry if I went off at a bit of a tangent there, I await with great interest what other responses there are.


    Of course, back in the real world I'd bet they'd both get offered CEng if they applied at, say, 35 (to pick a randomish spot in their career) whether they strictly met UKSpec or not!


    By the way, for anyone who finds themselves in mid-Croatia with a couple of hours to spare I can strongly recommend the Nikola Tesla Memorial Center in Smiljan https://www.mcnikolatesla.hr/  (there is a "Select Language" button halfway down the page) - my very much non-engineer wife enjoyed it nearly as much as I did!


    Cheers,


    Andy

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    When you're that famous for your work, you don't need to apply for CEng, and FIET. They would most likely receive honorary CEng and FIET, to go with their multiple honorary Doctorates/Fellowship awards, freedom of the city and lots more. Just ask Will.I.Am - the music [guru, producer, talent contest judge], oh and part-time technology geek.


    The requirements of the UKSpec as it is, I don't think even he or she 'who works in mysterious ways', would qualify for CEng. That market has been well and truly cornered by the BSc|BEng|MEng engineers. ????

  • And now we learn that Alan Turing will appear on the new £50 note. Let's give him all the posthumous accolades we can!  The pity is we will never atone for the appalling way he was treated in the 1950s, after all he did for the war effort.
  • Well, I suspect in his early years, Michael Faraday being a practical man without postnomials after his name, came from a poor family, so may well not have got his CEng under UKSpec regulations ......

    Often many people who appear to be off the wall or on the spectrum have the necessary abilities to lead in their fields without the capabilities to administer and visa versa, administrators are unlikely to have the clarity and imagination to achieve anything but an ordered lifestyle.....


    Legh
  • I fully agree with Andy's assessment except that I suspect Alan Turing may have fallen down on the D competencies. I have heard that his social skills were a bit lacking, possibly because of self-consciousness due to his stammer, though I would hope that the stammer would not be marked down per se.

    I also believe he had to let others at Bletchley deal with the management of the projects he initiated, though whether this was due to lack of C competencies or his abrasive social skills in dealing with the people i don't know.

    Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge of his life can clear up these matters as the above is only based on hearsay.

    Michael Faraday - I suspect that despite the lack of post-nominals he would have sailed through at quite an early age. The work he did with Humphrey Davy to produce the safety lamp (in the space of a single month - I think it was October 1815) would have nailed the A and B competencies in addition to the E at a time that he was only in his mid-20s. He could probably have achieved the C and D competencies at that time also.
  • I was thinking more of their social skills than ticking UKSpec competences. I suspect Alan Turing wouldn't have put himself across well at interview, I'm not sure Tesla would have either. I do get the feeling that feeling comfortable in front of an interview panel and being happy to blow your own trumpet are helpful factors here. In my past I have been described as somewhat autistic, and I believe my own PRI performance and results reflected this. Sour grapes? A little bit, but also a suggestion that we should bear these aspects in mind when we design or change our process of assessment. I was LN secretary for 8 years and am still an active volunteer, so I've learned to live with it, but I doubt a future PRI would shine.
  • I certainly think it's worth the History group having a go at preparing a few CEng/IEng forms for the various famous engineering names of the past, maybe in the writing style of the day foresooth, just to give some 'guidance' about the sort of things candidates should be talking about in their applications,and with a style of content that would still be relevant today.


    Most of the names will have enough 'exceptional' scores to make up for the occasional 'adequate' (and even then it's usually the 'media' [winners writing history] putting them in a bad light).


    Maybe Heaviside vs Preece is a better discussion (add 'debate' to your A vs B search;-)

  • Alex Barrett:

    ... I believe my own PRI performance and results reflected this. Sour grapes? A little bit,...




    Alex, I am glad you say you have learned to live with it, but don't get into the mindset that you wouldn't shine at a future PRI. An interview is just an interview and every one is different. I was very lucky that my interviewers did their best to put me at ease and succeeded so well that for many years I felt it was the easiest interview I had ever undergone (and I made the point and thanked them for it afterwards, which gratified them). What I am trying to say is don't prejudge the interview with the expectation that it will be difficult since for the PRI the interviewers are normally trying to find a way for you to pass. Your experience as LN secretary should provide all the evidence that is needed for the 'social skills' so don't be afraid to give it a go (but if you don't want to, that is alright also, whatever your reasons).

    Alasdair 

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Whilst treating the above discussions as just  light hearted banter; there are nevertheless fundamental errors of judgement in some of the observations provided. One has to remember that the UKSpec is an continually evolving standard, drawn up from the culmination of the experiences of CEngs from various academic and employment backgrounds, and the impact that technology has on demands of the job. As a result, it can be argued that achieving CEng now is even more difficult than it has ever been.


    Bearing that in mind, it is not inconceivable that many of the mature CEngs today would not meet the present UKSpec requirements to CEng registration. I remember one Andy Miller a few years back, had doubts about whether he could achieve CEng based on the newer academic requirement of an MEng degree? And what about the prospects of the retired volunteer members acting as PRIs and PRAs today? Could they meet the standards. But of course, there has been modifications applied to the interpretation of the UKSpec to allow those without degrees to be scored on their experiences; and this has led to worked based engineers achieving CEng registration from an ONC/OND starting point.


    In concluding, I would say that it is most unfair to judge the likes of Alan Turing, Nikola Tesla, Michael Faraday, and many more past great scientists/engineers, to today's modern day requirement for CEng registration; just as it would be considered unfair to judge present day members who achieved their CEng registration many years ago to today's standards. 


    The fairest way would be to hypothetically consider whether Alan Turing, would have met the requirement for CEng registration in the 1940s, where the UKSpec (or its equivalent) had been drawn up by peers of his generation? Well, given his enormous achievements in the field of computing, the answer would most definitely be yes. The same criteria should also be applied to greats from their own time period, and not our time period.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    The students should never judge their masters. As scientists and engineers we stand on the shoulders of the greats. We wouldn't be here as engineers were it not for the achievements of the likes of Faraday, and other greats.


    CEng registration is a fantastic achievement; but the title comes with some caveats; one of  which is that it is a subscription based award. The EC is basically leasing or renting out the status on an annual basis. It's not a permanent fixture and nor is it free, even if the recipient's employer has to pay for it. Secondly, there is a matter of submitting an annual CPD form. It's like renting a flat and having to decorate it on a yearly basis. Some engineers will put up with it for the title, whilst others will find it unappealing, especially if their pay and working conditions do not necessarily improve.