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BREXIT, impact on Eur Ing and CEng!
Cheong Tsoi
312 Posts
Question
What if BREXIT, is it no longer for CEng to register for Eur Ing? What do you think?
16 Replies
Maurice Poole
131 Posts
FEANI offered EurIng before UK entered even the Common Market so I don't suppose "Brexit" (dreadful word even if it has entered common parlance) will make any difference.  If anyone knows otherwise, I'll be happy to be corrected.  As a CEng I never went for EurIng but many did.
John Mann
56 Posts
The IET has been very silent on Brexit. This is an area where a professional institution could really help its members, for example on CE marking. Certainly there should be guidance on EurIng and the more general question of recognition of professional qualifications.
The EEF by contrast has been very active.
Mark Tickner
257 Posts
Not completely silent, because a site search turns up a few things.  But not extremely active, agreed.  I feel they (The IET) are being somewhat careful; because there are very strong feelings on both sides and sticking your head over the parapet is liable to get you shot at.

However, especially for smaller businesses, given that what is actually going to happen is so up in the air right now you would need to advise on every possible option (the implications for VAT MOSS are a whole different discussion).

I wonder what the EU will make of the proposed 2 year degrees?  They didn't much like our 3 year degrees to start with!
Ray Hunter
5 Posts
I became EUR ING because of Brexit, precisely because it isn't very clear how professional and academic qualifications will be mutually recognised in the future.

At the same time, I asked for my UK degree to be assessed by the local organisation NUFIC in the Netherlands for how it compared to a Dutch degree. I got this service for "free" as part of the possible residency tests (which we now know won't be required). The results were very disappointing. I graduated with 1st class honours and the prize for the best final papers in my course at the University of York. In those days you just got your degree certificate and that was it. Apparently now you are provided with written evidence of your exam scores in your final year. No one still has a copy of those results from so many years ago (including the University). So NUFIC awarded me a certificate of equivalence for the lowest class Dutch degree because I couldn't hand over the necessary bits of paper, even though my degree certificate clearly states 1st class honours.

If this is the future for "equivalance testing" of historic results going forward, I can only recommend getting a European qualification while you can. Your mileage may vary depending on upcoming negotiations.
Mutual recognition of accreditations is done by various accords. It's not part of the European Union (EU) mechanisms, so should be unaffected by the leaving of the EU. There may be minor local difficulties, but the general agreement about mutual recognition is covered by the Accords.
Ray Hunter
5 Posts
I'm sorry I don't fully understand your post stating that recognition is "not part of the European Union (EU) mechanisms".

I've looked up the "accords" on the Engineering Council web site.

Have I got the correct ones that you mean?

https://www.ieagreements.org/accords/sydney/
https://www.ieagreements.org/accords/washington/signatories/
https://www.ieagreements.org/accords/dublin/

Because neither the Netherlands nor the EU is a signatory to any of these.

Nor does the Netherlands appear to be part of EUR ACE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUR-ACE_label as an individual country, except via FEANI (hence I think that the EUR ING is useful for me)

However, the Netherlands (via the EU) is certainly part of mutual recognition via various directives e.g. Directive 2005/36/EC (MRPQ), Directive 89/48/EEC, and Directive 92/51/EEC. These are also explicitly covered in the Withdrawal Agreement Chapter 3 Articles 27-29.
 
If this has nothing to do with the EU, why are they explicitly mentioned in the draft treaty?
Ray Hunter
5 Posts
So in summary, here's what I think

1) to answer the original posters question, I think the path from CEng to EUR ING will still be open, because EUR ING is administered by FEANI which is not an EU institution and the Engineering Council continues to be a member of FEANI.

2) EUR ING is a useful qualification to have IMHO for working in the EU27 countries because EUR ING is administered by FEANI and FEANI is explicitly recognised by the EU as a body that is competent to administer academic and professional engineering qualifications. So having a EUR ING title will automatically provide a path to (maintaining) mutual recognition in all EU27 countries.

3) CEng and Chartered Engineer on its own will be less recognised as of the end of the transition period (31st Dec 2020) (unless there's a new deal). CEng and Chartered Engineer will remain registered as a protected title in the UK under civil law. The current registration and mutually recognition under EU law of "CEng and ""Chartered Engineer" via directive 2005/36/EC will cease at the end of the transition period.

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Andy Millar
1750 Posts

Ray Hunter:
2) EUR ING is a useful qualification to have IMHO for working in the EU27 countries because EUR ING is administered by FEANI and FEANI is explicitly recognised by the EU as a body that is competent to administer academic and professional engineering qualifications. So having a EUR ING title will automatically provide a path to (maintaining) mutual recognition in all EU27 countries.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone working in the EU to know if this is the case? Is Eur Ing essential / helpful for certain roles? Personally I've never been asked for it when I've been loaned out to mainland EU countries, but that might be because the contract was with my employer rather than me.

Thanks,

Andy

Ray Hunter
5 Posts
Interesting post from IChemE. Thanks for posting. This information about FEANI matches with points 1 & 2 I made above.

Although they also clearly state in the text "Professional recognition is covered under the EU Professional Qualifications Directive (2005/36/EC as modernised by 2013/55/EU)".

Unless I'm very much mistaken, that directive will no longer apply to UK citizens moving to the EU27 or EU27 citizens moving to the UK after the end of the transition period (31st December 2020) for any new assessments of equivalence for people who are "just" CEng or have another equivalent national professional qualification and haven't yet bothered with obtaining EUR ING [point 3].

We shall see if that's significant. IMVHO My bases appear covered, but only because of EUR ING (FEANI), not because of CEng (Engineering Council). Your mileage may vary.
Moshe W
496 Posts

Brexit and professional recognition

Engineering Council

https://www.engc.org.uk/news/press-releases/pr2020/brexit-and-professional-recognition/
 

No withdrawal agreement

The UK could still leave with no deal if the withdrawal agreement is not approved by 31 January 2020, or at the end of the implementation period. To cater for this outcome a new Statutory Instrument on the recognition of professional qualifications was laid before Parliament on 19 December 2018. This Statutory Instrument works to replace the domestic legislation which implemented the Mutual Recognition of Professional Qualifications Directive (2005/36/EC, as amended by 2013/55/EU) and would replace S.I. 2015 No. 2059.

Alongside the new Statutory Instrument is the Explanatory Memorandum, which provides greater detail about the changes this legislative instrument would make. Updated guidance for users will be available from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) closer to the date.



 
The 'Summary Explainer' of the Christmas Eve "Trade and co-operation agreement" says this:
Section 2 - Mutual recognition of professional qualifications
50.The UK and the EU have agreed a framework for the recognition of qualifications between the Parties which is based on the EU’s recent FTA agreements. It makes improvements on those agreements, which are designed to make the system more flexible and easier for regulatory authorities to use.
51.This approach will allow the UK and its regulators to maintain standards of professional competence. From early 2021, the government will provide help and guidance to UK regulatory authorities and professional bodies to help them benefit from these provisions as well as other recognition paths.
52.The Agreement clarifies that the provisions on professional qualifications are without prejudice to alternative arrangements that the UK may agree with the EU, allowing for improved mechanisms to be agreed in future. Agreements will be negotiated on a profession-by-profession basis.
See
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdf
If anyone finds out more detail, this might be a good place to post it.
... and now...  can I point people to read the Trade and Co-operation Agreement,
Page 97: Article SERVIN.5.13: Professional Qualifications
also
Page 770: Annex Servin-6 'Guidelines for the arrangements on the recognition of professional qualifications'

It does however require other parts of the document to be understood first, e.g. the definition of a Party or a Competent Authority.
Some guidance from the Institution on the role of the Engineering Council, FEANI etc in the context of EurIng (etc) might be widely appreciated?
Andy Millar:

Ray Hunter:
2) EUR ING is a useful qualification to have IMHO for working in the EU27 countries because EUR ING is administered by FEANI and FEANI is explicitly recognised by the EU as a body that is competent to administer academic and professional engineering qualifications. So having a EUR ING title will automatically provide a path to (maintaining) mutual recognition in all EU27 countries.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone working in the EU to know if this is the case? Is Eur Ing essential / helpful for certain roles? Personally I've never been asked for it when I've been loaned out to mainland EU countries, but that might be because the contract was with my employer rather than me.

Thanks,

Andy

In my European experience (6 years in the EU plus a year in Switzerland) Eur Ing is not essential. I've never met anyone who has it here. It always struck me as slightly embarrassing to have a title which no one has heard of and which requires explanation. Of course, if there's any practical advantage after Brexit I would put in the paperwork for it. Even here in Austria where they love titles I've never seen it.

A broader point: when we're talking about mutual recognition what exactly do we mean? Employers in the EU will for practical purposes still recognise British qualifications, i.e. they will continue to employ people with British qualifications, even if according to governments here a British degree is no longer formally recognised as being equivalent to an EU one. What jobs can you do now using the available mutual recognition which will not be available in the future?  

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