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European recognition of Chartered Engineer Status

According to a bulletin issed by the European Commission (January 22 2018- Notice to Stakeholders)

'Authorized representatives or responsible people in the United Kingdom will not, as from the withdrawal date, be recognised as authorised representatives or responsible persons.....' . 

My question is as Chartered Engineers are essentially classed a 'Responsible People' will the withdrawal from EU rules mean that CEng will have to seek registration  as Eur Ing to work in or be recognized for work associated with Europe or Internationally.

  • I suspect there is no simple answer to this. What is probably needed is a reciprocal agreement between UK and the EU for mutual recognition, in much the same way as there is a need for a Trade Agreement to replace the Free Trade policy of the EU. I suspect that what the statement means is that there will not be 'automatic recognition' of authorized representatives or responsible people. With all the different agreements that have to be put in place there may be a gap until a mutual recognition agreement is put in place, during which time, who knows what will happen. Working internationally may be different as the Engineering Council registrations are UK awards rather than EU awards and are already recognised internationally, so there should not be an issue there.

    It may be further complicated where there is a multinational employer with offices in the EU where the company may be the responsible organisation, which further clouds the issue. All I can say is I am working in the UK and have no intention of working in the EU in the few years left before I retire so it is not a problem for me (and before you ask, I voted 'remain'!)

    Alasdair

  • Alan Foxall:

    <snip...>

    My question is as Chartered Engineers are essentially classed a 'Responsible People' will the withdrawal from EU rules mean that CEng will have to seek registration  as Eur Ing to work in or be recognized for work associated with Europe or Internationally.




    My understanding is that Eur Ing is essentially a UK qualification also, so I suspect it equally won't be recognised.  If someone knows different then I'm happy to be corrected.


    The existing agreements (Washington, etc) were for the mutual recognition of the academic qualifications rather then the professional qualifications as I understood it as well.

  • Is this "Notice To Stakeholders Withdrawal Of The United Kingdom And EU Rules In The Field Of Industrial Products"? If so, I think you'll find that "Responsible Person" is not connected to registered status at all, it will be defined in various regulations as the person who a company declares is Responsible for e.g. signing off compliance in their name. It's their status in the company that's important. They are the person that is held responsible if their products don't comply, it doesn't mean they are required to have any particular competence.


    When I say "various regulations", it only actually seems to apply to the Cosmetic Products regulations 1223/2009 (based on a quick Google). And these (articles 4 & 5, yes I am a bit of an EU directive geek!) describe in great detail what the Responsible Person is responsible for, but not who they are - other than they must be in the EU.


    So I wouldn't worry about that.


    What would concern me far more if I was still working in design and manufacturing would be the other Notice to Stakeholders that came out on the same day:
    "Withdrawal Of The United Kingdom And EU Rules For Trademarks And Community Designs Pursuant To Regulation (EU) 2017/1001 On The European Union Trade Mark And Regulation (EC) No 6/2002 On Community Designs"

    It's been pretty common for UK companies to get EU patents because a single application also covered the UK. But by the end of next year they won't.


    No-one should underestimate the huge amount of new legislation we're going to have to write as we leave. Great for those of us who sit on the appropriate committees as we'll become very much in demand! (One of the many reasons I voted remain is because I'm so aware of the time that's going to have to be spent writing new laws and regulations. If that's what we (as a country) decide want to spend our money on, then fine. And as I say, professionally it's jolly good for me as a consultant for multiple reasons. But I don't think most people were / are aware of the huge cost and time that's going to be involved, and the uncertainty - and hence legal costs - during the transition; irrespective of whether it would change their mind I think they should at least know.)


    Interesting, thanks for the heads-up,


    Andy

     


  • Andy,

    Your comment "other than that they must be in the EU" makes it a bit clearer. The Directives are for goods placed on the market in Europe and one of the requirements is that the seller must have a presence in the EU (so that they can be sued in the EU when thing go wrong?) so once the UK is no longer a part of the EU, an office in the UK does not count as meeting that and the people in it can't claim they are the responsible persons under EU Directives.

    Alasdair
  • Mark

    Eur Ing is a FEANI  registration which is recognized in most of Europe and internationally.  FEANI is a federation of professional that unites national engineering associations from 34 European countries. So at face value the title of Eur Ing is more relevant than CEng in Europe.

    My concern is at that if we leave Europe and  become a third country our professional status will no longer be recognized in the short term. It is bad enough that within the UK the term Engineer is not legally recognized  (unlike architects, barristers etc.,) without losing what the little professional dignity we have left
  • Thanks for confirming Alan Foxall‍. I've never come across a EU engineer using Eur Ing, so I've always assumed it to be a UK designation.


    Although the question might be; if the Engineering Council is allowed to stay part of FEANI afterwards.  Saying that, there are other agreements for mutual recognition, some of which go beyond the EU - so things might not completely change.
  • I could be wrong but I think you'll find that FEANI is a European organisation not a EU one (although formally recognised by the European Commission).  Membership includes engineering associations from non EU states including Kazakhstan (even though not in Europe) and Russia , for example.  I would imagine that the Engineering Council will remain a member.
  • We really shouldn't be having to make guesses here. The IET should have been on top of this since 2016.

  • John Mann:

    We really shouldn't be having to make guesses here. The IET should have been on top of this since 2016.




    But it is the Engineering Council who are the FEANI member for UK, not the IET.

  • With regards to John Mann's Comments and Alasdair Anderson reply. An Individual's Chartered Engineer Status is recommended by the institution to the Engineering Council. So both organization have a part to play in ascertaining the future of European recognition of CEng by FEANI. However it is my understanding that neither organization have made any public comments on the effects of BREXIT on registration , or the legal status of Engineers etc. Or if they have I have not seen it.

    Alan Foxall CEng FIET