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European recognition of Chartered Engineer Status
Question
According to a bulletin issed by the European Commission (January 22 2018- Notice to Stakeholders)
'Authorized representatives or responsible people in the United Kingdom will not, as from the withdrawal date, be recognised as authorised representatives or responsible persons.....' . 
My question is as Chartered Engineers are essentially classed a 'Responsible People' will the withdrawal from EU rules mean that CEng will have to seek registration  as Eur Ing to work in or be recognized for work associated with Europe or Internationally.
 
20 Replies
I suspect there is no simple answer to this. What is probably needed is a reciprocal agreement between UK and the EU for mutual recognition, in much the same way as there is a need for a Trade Agreement to replace the Free Trade policy of the EU. I suspect that what the statement means is that there will not be 'automatic recognition' of authorized representatives or responsible people. With all the different agreements that have to be put in place there may be a gap until a mutual recognition agreement is put in place, during which time, who knows what will happen. Working internationally may be different as the Engineering Council registrations are UK awards rather than EU awards and are already recognised internationally, so there should not be an issue there.
It may be further complicated where there is a multinational employer with offices in the EU where the company may be the responsible organisation, which further clouds the issue. All I can say is I am working in the UK and have no intention of working in the EU in the few years left before I retire so it is not a problem for me (and before you ask, I voted 'remain'!)
Alasdair 
Mark Tickner
284 Posts

Alan Foxall:
<snip...>
My question is as Chartered Engineers are essentially classed a 'Responsible People' will the withdrawal from EU rules mean that CEng will have to seek registration  as Eur Ing to work in or be recognized for work associated with Europe or Internationally.

My understanding is that Eur Ing is essentially a UK qualification also, so I suspect it equally won't be recognised.  If someone knows different then I'm happy to be corrected.

The existing agreements (Washington, etc) were for the mutual recognition of the academic qualifications rather then the professional qualifications as I understood it as well.
Andy Millar
1784 Posts
Is this "Notice To Stakeholders Withdrawal Of The United Kingdom And EU Rules In The Field Of Industrial Products"? If so, I think you'll find that "Responsible Person" is not connected to registered status at all, it will be defined in various regulations as the person who a company declares is Responsible for e.g. signing off compliance in their name. It's their status in the company that's important. They are the person that is held responsible if their products don't comply, it doesn't mean they are required to have any particular competence.

When I say "various regulations", it only actually seems to apply to the Cosmetic Products regulations 1223/2009 (based on a quick Google). And these (articles 4 & 5, yes I am a bit of an EU directive geek!) describe in great detail what the Responsible Person is responsible for, but not who they are - other than they must be in the EU.

So I wouldn't worry about that.

What would concern me far more if I was still working in design and manufacturing would be the other Notice to Stakeholders that came out on the same day:
"Withdrawal Of The United Kingdom And EU Rules For Trademarks And Community Designs Pursuant To Regulation (EU) 2017/1001 On The European Union Trade Mark And Regulation (EC) No 6/2002 On Community Designs"
It's been pretty common for UK companies to get EU patents because a single application also covered the UK. But by the end of next year they won't.

No-one should underestimate the huge amount of new legislation we're going to have to write as we leave. Great for those of us who sit on the appropriate committees as we'll become very much in demand! (One of the many reasons I voted remain is because I'm so aware of the time that's going to have to be spent writing new laws and regulations. If that's what we (as a country) decide want to spend our money on, then fine. And as I say, professionally it's jolly good for me as a consultant for multiple reasons. But I don't think most people were / are aware of the huge cost and time that's going to be involved, and the uncertainty - and hence legal costs - during the transition; irrespective of whether it would change their mind I think they should at least know.)

Interesting, thanks for the heads-up,

Andy
 

 
Andy,
Your comment "other than that they must be in the EU" makes it a bit clearer. The Directives are for goods placed on the market in Europe and one of the requirements is that the seller must have a presence in the EU (so that they can be sued in the EU when thing go wrong?) so once the UK is no longer a part of the EU, an office in the UK does not count as meeting that and the people in it can't claim they are the responsible persons under EU Directives.
Alasdair
Mark
Eur Ing is a FEANI  registration which is recognized in most of Europe and internationally.  FEANI is a federation of professional that unites national engineering associations from 34 European countries. So at face value the title of Eur Ing is more relevant than CEng in Europe.
My concern is at that if we leave Europe and  become a third country our professional status will no longer be recognized in the short term. It is bad enough that within the UK the term Engineer is not legally recognized  (unlike architects, barristers etc.,) without losing what the little professional dignity we have left
Mark Tickner
284 Posts
Thanks for confirming Alan Foxall‍. I've never come across a EU engineer using Eur Ing, so I've always assumed it to be a UK designation.

Although the question might be; if the Engineering Council is allowed to stay part of FEANI afterwards.  Saying that, there are other agreements for mutual recognition, some of which go beyond the EU - so things might not completely change.
Ian Evans
64 Posts
I could be wrong but I think you'll find that FEANI is a European organisation not a EU one (although formally recognised by the European Commission).  Membership includes engineering associations from non EU states including Kazakhstan (even though not in Europe) and Russia , for example.  I would imagine that the Engineering Council will remain a member.
John Mann
60 Posts
We really shouldn't be having to make guesses here. The IET should have been on top of this since 2016.

John Mann:
We really shouldn't be having to make guesses here. The IET should have been on top of this since 2016.

But it is the Engineering Council who are the FEANI member for UK, not the IET.
With regards to John Mann's Comments and Alasdair Anderson reply. An Individual's Chartered Engineer Status is recommended by the institution to the Engineering Council. So both organization have a part to play in ascertaining the future of European recognition of CEng by FEANI. However it is my understanding that neither organization have made any public comments on the effects of BREXIT on registration , or the legal status of Engineers etc. Or if they have I have not seen it.
Alan Foxall CEng FIET

 
To reply to Alan, my point about the EC being the UK member of FEANI is that this means that the IET can only get their information second hand through the EC.  FEANI are not an EU organisation, being founded in 1951, six years before the Treaty of Rome which set up the then EEC.  Anyone who has a EUR ING title will therefore retain it after Brexit and the title will be recognised in the EU. There is no indication on the FEANI website of any plans to not recognise CEng, despite the many papers on the impact of a no-deal Brexit in many sectors (it is worth having a look if you have some spare time).
Whether CEng is recognised in Europe after Brexit is not a question for FEANI (who award the EUR ING title, not CEng), but rather a question for the Government and the EC who are the ones who award CEng (to the extent that when I was accepted after my interview with the IEE I could only title myself as Chartered Electrical Engineer, not being allowed to use the CEng post-nominal until the Engineering Council met nearly six months later! Fortunately the process has been streamlined.)
With regard to Alan's comments, I agree that the IET have an interest in whether CEng is recognised within the EU but they have no negotiating rights with the EU (and neither do the Engineering Council). Unless there is something in the news I have missed, there is at present no agreement with the EU so what is there that the IET can advise?
Alasdair
John Mann
60 Posts

Alasdair Anderson:
Whether CEng is recognised in Europe after Brexit is not a question for FEANI (who award the EUR ING title, not CEng), but rather a question for the Government and the EC who are the ones who award CEng
....
With regard to Alan's comments, I agree that the IET have an interest in whether CEng is recognised within the EU but they have no negotiating rights with the EU (and neither do the Engineering Council). Unless there is something in the news I have missed, there is at present no agreement with the EU so what is there that the IET can advise?
Alasdair

Yes, this is indeed true. However the government seem unable to answer even the most basic questions on Brexit so I doubt they will have an answer to this!  It is also worth noting that Theresa May has been withdrawing from membership of organisations such as EURATOM which are nothing to do with the EU but have "Europe" in their name.
I'm an IEng, so not personally concerned about Eur Ing,  I would like to know if I can still go and comission a machine in Germany after Brexit. It's issues like this where in my opinion the IET should have been lobbying the government and giving advice to the members.  Perhaps they have, and I have just not been aware of it.
John.
In reply of various comments on this subject.
The Engineering Council are the UK partner or member of FEANI, which is made up of a number of national registration bodies like the EC. My point is that all EC registration (Eng Tech IEng & CEng) are recognized by other nations (including the EU) by  virtue of the EC membership of FEANI. So I would have thought that the future relationship between the UK and EU would have been discussed between the EC and FEANI and our own Government to come to an opinion of whether this exisiting recognition continues or changes. However (and this is my main query) I have seen nothing from the IET or the EC on this issue, and it seems ; to me, that the EC etc are sitting on the fence to see what happens, I hope that I am wrong?
Alan Foxall CEng FIET
Alan,
I note your comments but as FEANI is not an EU organisation but rather a European (in the sense that it is representing the countries which form the continent) one, why would Brexit cause them (FEANI) to change their recognition of CEng, IEng and Eng Tech?
Alasdair
Roy Bowdler
847 Posts
https://www.hse.gov.uk/managing/competence.htm

A UK organisation would be very unwise to rely on the fact that someone holds CEng or any other form of UK or international registration as a definitive demonstration of competence. Although in appropriate circumstances this may be useful supporting evidence.  

If we leave out any political horse trading, protectionism and bureaucratic self-justification that occurs, both within countries and internationally, then jurisdictions committed to similar levels of Health, Safety and environmental protection to the UK, will maintain similar standards.  The politics will just have to play out , albeit perhaps very wastefully, if we have already spent years agreeing common standards.    
      

 
Ray Hunter
5 Posts

Luciano Bacco:
More:

https://www.tuttoingegnere.it/en/euring


Also(Italian):
https://www.teknoring.com/news/abilitazione-professionale/riconoscimenti-titoli-professionali-conseguiti-allestero-la-guida-per-gli-ingegneri/

 

 

Thanks for the post!

I was unaware that "IT Engineer" (perito industriale informatico) is a regulated profession in Italy. It isn't here in the Netherlands.

FYI There's a European wide list here https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/regprof/index.cfm?action=regprofs&id_country=10&quid=1&mode=asc&maxrows=15
 
Luciano Bacco
789 Posts
According  the European Directive 2005/EC only a graduate Industrial Perito can be made equal to an Industrial Engineer in Europe (but not in Italy: he remains Industrial Perito- graduate).

From database of the Regulated Professions of the European Commission:
Profession Title: Engineer
Qualification level: PS3 – Diploma of post-secondary level (3-4 years), Art. 11 d, that is, holding a 3-4 year degree.
https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/regprof/index.cfm?action=regprof&id_regprof=29365

Here in Italy we have two types of Industrial Peritoes (Industrial Experts): the graduate one and Diploma one, having a specialist of secondary education at the Engineering Technician standard.
But here things are quickly changing: in fact a new State Law prescribe that within 2021 all Industrial Peritoes entering the liberal profession. that is willing to work on their own, MUST  hold a newly introduced 3 year degree called " The  Professional Degree" articled in such a way:
1st year: Theory
2nd year: on the job
3rd year: practical training under the supervision of a already well established professional that may be an Engineer or a Graduate Industrial Perito.
It is good thing, at this point, to point out that here in Italy this "new style" Industrial Perito will not be made equal to the preexisting 3 year  Engineer but it will remain with the denomination of Industrial Perito (graduate)....


 
Luciano Bacco
789 Posts

Alan Foxall:
Mark
Eur Ing is a FEANI  registration which is recognized in most of Europe and internationally.  FEANI is a federation of professional that unites national engineering associations from 34 European countries. So at face value the title of Eur Ing is more relevant than CEng in Europe.
My concern is at that if we leave Europe and  become a third country our professional status will no longer be recognized in the short term. It is bad enough that within the UK the term Engineer is not legally recognized  (unlike architects, barristers etc.,) without losing what the little professional dignity we have left

There's an interesting 'benefit' of having the EUR ING title, in that you are allowed to put it as part of your official name in a UK passport. This document sets out what titles are permissible, and the relevant sections read:
 

 

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