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Why PEC does not register Ph.D. and CEng as Engineers? Why it was active till 2014? Anyone affected?
Dear All
In this era of advancement in the science and engineering fields, the segregation between the two is almost impossible but due to prujudice attitude of PEC, the regulatios are changed as and when required  and a firm policy in line with world is still missing in Pakistan.  Most of the Subject specialists and having Ph.D. or CEng are not able to contribute as a specialist just because of hurdlesand monopoly of engineering council Pakistan.  This has lead to a defeciency of engineers in academia in particular and most of the new trends in science and engineering are just rusty in this country.  My recommendeation is to recognise at least the degrees , registered by foreign engineering councils as approved by at least Washington Accord as professional engineers.
Please take pitty on the scholars abreast with the advance knowledge of engineering and new fields.  PEC should either register these as engineers or they should be allowed to the universities to utalise this asset to share their knowledge with the young generation of Pakistan in its true spirit in  engineering desciplines.

Regards
Dr. Aslam
 
44 Replies
Moshe W
493 Posts
I don't know anything about PEC.
But some countries view this type of issue as political. Maybe they want to encourage people to attend local universities in Pakistan or
to reduce foreign western influence etc etc.
In Canada immigrants who are CEng can't register as Engineers unless their degree is assessed and they get P.Eng supervised work for duration of time (I think 1 year min) then pass an exam etc.
I know a few countries that don't like or allow degree tourism or recognized Distance Learning earned degrees. Some reasons are political others are accreditation and program comparison 
incompatibility.

 
Amjad Ali
5 Posts
Dear Dr. Aslam 
I am also in process for my CEng and then PE from PEC. As per my personal discussions with PEC they still give PEC membership to CEng but they have some process to evaluate your previous academic qualifications. I know some CEngs who got PEC after 2014. For your reference I will recommend you to visit PEC webpage "http://www.pec.org.pk/schedule_second.aspx"
PEC updated SRO: 804(I)/2016 Dated: 26th AUGUST, 2016.  “Chartered Engineer” shall be eligible to be registered as “Professional Engineer” in the relevant discipline provided he/she possesses four years of engineering qualification and satisfies the PEC Regulations for Engineering Education.
I have been told verbally by PEC that as if I am not B.Sc Engineer, hence not eligible.  But my point is that those talents who acquire Ph.D and M.Sc or M.Phil in Engineering but NOT having 4 years B.Sc Engineering are not considered as Engineers to transform their knowledge in enginering universities in Pakistan.  Why their knowledge is not worth useful for young engineers of Pakistan.  This educational compartism hardly exist in todays world.  PEC should acknowledge rather encourage such professionals to play their role in their own education society.   
Hello Dr.Aslam


You have raised a very reasonable and valid point.  You have mentioned the Science and Engineering.  But why not the Technology.  

Yes, there are many such like cases that the Pakistan Engineering Council (PEC) has refused those new applicants, for the title "Professional Engineer", who do not posses the 4 years Bachelors of Engineering (B.Sc Engineering or B.E), although they have MS Engineering or PhD Engineering Degrees.  On the other hand, now PEC is also cancelling the titles of those, who were already awarded the same title on basis of their non-engineering bachelors degree (either Science or Technology) + PhD Engg + CEng (UK).  Here in Pakistan, the Sceince, Engineering and Technology Community is highly condemning this cruel act of PEC.

As far as the matter of recruitment of such Professionals in the Pakistani Universities is concerned, i would like to include the matter of recruitment of such Professionals in the Pakistani Departments/Corporate Sector, too.  The Problem is that the PEC is not only the "Accreditator" of the Bachelor of Engineering Degrees but also it is the "Regulator of the Engineering Profession".  As per PEC, it only accredits and recognize the Engineering Degrees of Bachelor Level but not the Science Degrees and Technology Degrees, therefore, PEC impose the term forefully on the Universities and Corporate Sector that only their accredited Engineering degree Graduates be hired, otherwise as a Regulator, PEC will not award them the Licence as approved Engineering Firm / Department / Contractor / Operator etc.  Therefore, it is quite obvious that PEC supress the Science Grads and Technology Grads in the Universities and Corporate Sector for the purpose of employment on equal status or even not at all.  Which is really an injustice and disbalance/biased situation in the country.

It is for the information also that now Govt of Pakistan has established a separate professional council for the Technology Degrees named National Technology Council (NTC).  For the time being, it is just an Accrediator but not the Profession Regulator.  Hopefully, the minoply of the PEC would be broken down and NTC will also get the Profession Regulation status in the same Pakistani Market.

Unfortunately, there is still not any professional council for the Science Degrees in Pakistan.  Neither PEC nor NTC are taking them under their umbrella.  Hopefully, the Govt. of Pakistan may establish a separate professional council for them in near future and their council may also act as an Accreditator and Profession Regulator.

Yes, the IET or EC UK may make a strong ties with the PEC and NTC to get recognize their CEngs and IEngs so that they could be fully recognized in Pakistani Market.

Thanks

  

 
Yung Lai
45 Posts
We need to recognized that Degree is the fundamental in all profession registration. If one have B.Eng in Engineering and PHD in Architectural, he cannot register as Professional Architects or have B.Ach and PHD in Engineering, he cannot register as Professional Engineer as well. This happen to be the case in most country.

When we look at Washington Accord or Sydney Accord, the requirement is 4 years accredited BEng or 3 years BEng for Engineer or Technologist level. That the basic and fundamental requirement.

Some country like Malaysia have law like Registration of Engineers Act 1967 and Technologists and Technicians Act 2015, and that put in the requirement for accredited BEng for the registration for Engineer and Technologist in order for them to work legally in Malaysia dealing with engineering and technology.

That why when we want to practice any form of professional services be it in Engineering, Doctor, Accoutant, Lawyer and etc, we must understand the country law requirement.
Most student in university are not aware of the law requirement. I think University must play it part by introducing a syllabus regarding to professional registration in any profession.

Thanks,
Lai Yung Yaw GCGI IEng MIET IntET(UK) ASEAN Eng. Tech. SMIEEE
Shee Chew
396 Posts
Whether we like it or not we are bring evaluated based on a set of academic and work related qualification. 

Compliance is the key in this world today.

Find out the requirements and set out to achieve them accordingly.

Regards
 Chris Chew
 
Tariq Umar
5 Posts
Dear Muhammad Aslam,

You raised a significant issue which affected many qualifed peoples in Pakistan.
Unfortunately the system of professional registration in Pakistan is very old and the people in PEC under political umbralla don't to change it for their own vested interest.
PEC laws is similar to the other laws in Pakistan which totally violate the basic human right. Qualified peoples like you left no option to leave in exile. You being a Pakistani and a PhD degree in Engineering become a Chartered Engineer with Engineering Council in UK. Chartered Engineer status allow you to practice engineering not only in UK but also worldwide as Chartered Engineer status is well accepted around the world. At the same time you are not allow to pratice engineering in Pakistan as you not registered with Pakistan Engineering Council. I feel this totally unfair and unjustified but I dont expect the situation in Pakistan can change in near future. 
    

Regards!
Tariq Umar MSC, CEng MICE
Sultanate of Oman
tariqumar1984@gmail.com  
Moshe W
493 Posts
I cant speak for Pakistan, but number countries for political reasons but not only political want their country students to study
in the country. They protect the countries Engineering education system and also the Engineers who are PEC registered.
As there is what is called turf protection.
Imran Baig
7 Posts
According to Pakistan Engineering Council Website.... Second Schedule: (updated SRO: 47(I)/2017 Dated: January 18, 2017) Following Engineering Programmes/Professional Standings of various Universities/ Institutions and International Accords/Agreements outside Pakistan are declared as substantially equivalent qualification(s)/status by Pakistan Engineering Council (PEC):- Existing entries at Serial Nos.1 to 198, except Entry No. 111, 181, 182, 198 of the Second Schedule of PEC Act shall remain valid for Intake(s)/ admission(s) up to 31 March, 2015. S.No. University/Institution/Organization Recognized Engineering Degree Programme/Professional Status 111. Engineering Council UK “Chartered Engineer” shall be eligible to be registered as “Professional Engineer” in the relevant discipline provided he/she possesses four years of engineering qualification and satisfies the PEC Regulations for Engineering Education. ----------------------------- My Intake/ Admission in CEng is Jan 15.....I got CEng title in July 16...I visit PEC for PE and ask for registration....They simply refuse me and told if you have CEng before March 15 u are eligible...I try to explain that according to your website... Intake before March 15 is eligible for CEng but you are asking CEng before March 15....May be my English Language Reading is not good....Basically this is unfortunate in Pakistan...Senior People thinks that whatever they think that is excellent....They dont care about the future of new generation....Chairman PEC should take notice and grant PEC Registration to those who completed their Education according to their Law...i. e Who Take Admissions before 2010 in PhD Engineering and who got CEng Admission before March 15....Hope for the Best... Imran Baig PhD-EE, CEng
Yung Lai
45 Posts
Hi all,

"Chartered Engineer status allow you to practice engineering not only in UK but also worldwide as Chartered Engineer status is well accepted around the world." - Tariq Umar.

We need to be very careful here. Doesnt meant that CEng status can allow you to practice engineering in any part of the world. Every country have their own system and law to practice engineering. For example in Malaysia you need to register with Board of Engineer Malaysia (BEM) in order to carry out engineering services legally, that's the important step. If you are a CEng but doesnt register with BEM, by law you can not practice engineering in Malaysia.

Just like driving license, although you have the competency and skill to drive the car but you don't have the license to drive in Malaysia. By law you can not drive in Malaysia unless you are register and pass the requirement here.

Thanks,

Lai Yung Yaw
GCGI IEng MIET IntET(UK) ASEAN Eng. Tech. SMIEEE
 
 
 
 
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Tariq Umar
5 Posts
Dear Yung Lai and others;

The problem raised by Dr Aslam is that he has a PhD in Enigneering and registered as a Chartered Engineer in UK but in Pakistan he is unable to register as PE and thus can't pursue a career in Engineering in Pakistan.

In terms of the value of CEng registration in the UK, we all know that indviduals registered as CEng with Engineeirng Council UK are eligible to registered as Curopean Engineer (EUR ING) and as a EUR ING they can practice engineering in the whole eurpoe. Apart from this indviduals registered as CEng with Engineering Council UK can register as International Professional Engineer (Int PE). International Professonal Engineer (Int PE) title allow CEng to practice worldwide incluing in Malaysia (BEM) as Engineering Council UK and BEM are the members of International Professonal Engineer Agreement (IPEA) under International Engineering Alliance. There are other several mutual/reciprocal recognittions agreements between the professional engineering institution of Engineering Council UK with other professional enigneeirng organizations worldwide.

For instance the Institution of Civil Engineers (ICE, UK) has mutual/ reciprocal recognition agrrement with follwing international organizations.    

- Engineers Ireland
- Institution of Profesisonal Engineers Newzealand
- Engineers Australia
- Hong Kong Institution of Engineers
- Engineering Council of South Africa

These agreements facilitate the engineer registered with Engineering Council UK through ICE to get the registration as Engineer in the above jurisductions.

In general, all these agreement indicates that CEng registration with Enigneering Council UK has a high value and international acceptance, therefore 
I wonder that why Aslam is not given any credit by Pakistan (Pakistan Engineering Council) of his registration as CEng.  

I hope this clear my point of view in the discussion.

Many Thansk!

Tariq Umar MSc, CEng MICE
Sultanate of Oman.
tariqumar1984@gmail.com
Tel: 0096896381864  



 
Yung Lai
45 Posts
Good day Tariq Umar,
I do understand the agreement or mutual understanding of those organization. Is really depend on your first degree when come to local registration for instance in Malaysia, other country I not too sure but I believe the main principle is the same.

For example if you earn CEng via mutual route or via non washington accord degree, in Malaysia you will fail to register with BEM as a Graduate Engineer. When you submitted your application, they will access on your first degree in engineering. Is not about accessing your CEng from UK.

Another Example, I hold IEng and IntET(UK) from ECUK via non Sydney Accord Degree. I can not register with Engineer Australia via mutual agreement route where when you hold IEng you can apply for Charter Engineering Technologist (No assessment) because of my non Sydney Accord Degree. I did try to apply but been rejected because of the academic requirement.

That why I said the requirement to register in Malaysia or country have law like Malaysia, is really depend on their academic requirement, and you have to submit your application and they will advise what is the reason for rejection.

Thanks,
Lai YY
 

 

Good day Tariq Umar,
I do understand the agreement or mutual understanding of those organization. Is really depend on your first degree when come to local registration for instance in Malaysia, other country I not too sure but I believe the main principle is the same.

For example if you earn CEng via mutual route or via non washington accord degree, in Malaysia you will fail to register with BEM as a Graduate Engineer. When you submitted your application, they will access on your first degree in engineering. Is not about accessing your CEng from UK.

Another Example, I hold IEng and IntET(UK) from ECUK via non Sydney Accord Degree. I can not register with Engineer Australia via mutual agreement route where when you hold IEng you can apply for Charter Engineering Technologist (No assessment) because of my non Sydney Accord Degree. I did try to apply but been rejected because of the academic requirement.

That why I said the requirement to register in Malaysia or country have law like Malaysia, is really depend on their academic requirement, and you have to submit your application and they will advise what is the reason for rejection.

Thanks,
Lai YY

Hello Yung

You have caught the reason in this case of rejection by the Pakistan Engineering Council (PEC) or BEM or Engineers Australia.

But the question is if;  

(Non Washington Accord Basic Bachelors Degree) + (Masters Degree or PhD Degree) + (Relevant Professional Experience) = CEng (UK),

and any Washington Accord Signatory does not bother to recognize this CEng(UK) just because of having Non Washington Accord Basic Degree, then i think one should not get the CEng(UK) Qualification, its useless.  The EC UK should stop granting the CEng Title to such candidates, otherwise, force other signatories to accept and respect their titles.

Thank you.
Moshe W
493 Posts
Nouman,

I think the person who is looking to register as CEng shouldn't do it in order to bypass their own country regulations.
And the responsibility should be with a person who is applying for CEng.  No one is forcing any one from any country to register.
You do your homework and make a decision to register or not to study for the right type of degree or not but we shouldn't blame the institution that allowed a person become CEng or IEng.
What if for example, the individual CEng wants to immigrate to the UK or get a work permit to work there for let's say on contract for some time?
You get my point. This is on the individual basis and we should respect each countries rules.
If some country doesn't recognize a degree because it's not matching their standard then they have a right to do so.
In the USA it really doesn't matter in which country you are registered. While rules are not uniform between the states usually,
the requirement is an evaluation of the degree by a specialized agency then passing of EIT/FE Exam then providing proof of
appropriate experience 4 years minimum and then passing the PE exam. This results in license and registration.
Some will allow a person with approving 8-year experience to take exam even if the degree is not in Engineering but Engineering Technology.
I think CEng or IEng doesn't exist in order to bypass each countries regulations.
I hope in Islamabad it still has value individually even if not formally, it's an achievement to be proud of.
We all should take responsibility for decisions we make, 
Maybe it possible to work with authorities in your country to make the rules more flexible, but a lot of times there is politics involved.






 
 


 
Hi Moshe My Institution and my Council claims that their Qualifications are internationally recognised. They have defined various routes to get these Qualifications. Then if any other country does not accept these Qualifications then the claim of my Institution and Council is compromised and i am deprived. This is the point. The international recognition must be two ways, inward and outward, without any kind of hurdle. is it one's fault that one believes on the Institution or Council that there Qualifications are recognised internationally???
Moshe W
493 Posts
Nouman,

I understand your point well. Don't get me wrong I wish the recognition was uniform. SInce members from other countries may read this exchange I think they need to be told to do their homework. Check the scope of the recognition and how it will be accepted in your home country or the country you may be working at.
I think one needs to check the scope of recognition because the perceptions of international recognition may not be the correct, If we think logically the  UK can't dictate other
countries what their standards should be to recognize and grant registration to the UK registered Engineers to practice in other locations. The same applies to Canada or US etc.
I have seen the same thing with Medical Doctors and other professionals. A well-recognized British brain surgent with international recognition and many scientific medical journals publications, yet if he wants to practice medicine outside the UK then each location will have its own rules.
In the USA this Dr will have to pass rigorous examinations by the national board before a license will be issued.
So as much as I understand what you are saying the fact is that if my country wants their Engineers to adhere to a specific standard than a foreign Engineer will have to be up to that standard.
In the US many Engineers choose not to get licensed due to industrial exemption and jobs that don't require licensure. Some would argue that if you are working at Google as a Software Engineer then your job title may have more recognition and prestige so to say then licensure.But others say and if you are also licensed then you are in high demand.



 



 
Tariq Umar
5 Posts
Dear Firends,

I noted that there is good discussion going on here.

Many countires have developed their standards and procedure to deal with the registration of engineers based on formal collge or university education and experience.
The degrees or diplam if not directly accredited by the concerned agencey in a spefic jurisduction are normally evaluated by their qualifcation assesment board. 
In Aslam situtaion where has no recognition of his crediential in Pakistan, I would like to mention that based on my working experience in Pakistan, there is really a problme in Islamabad to deal with such applicants.

I know many engineers who are internationally recognized, but in Islamabad they are struggling to get themselves registered and thus are unable to prusue a career in Engineering.
I also know some foreign PhD Engineering degree holders Pakistani, who came back wiht the vision to serve in Universites but were unable to get a job as they were not registered with the engineering council in Pakitsan.  

I am unable to understand the logic behind asking a PhD Engneering degree holder registered as Chartered Engineer that as your undergraduate degree is not accredidited or is not recognized by Washington Accord, therefore you are not eligible to be registered as Engineer in Islamabad. 

I know some people in Islamabad will feel proud on their standards. 

Regards!

Tariq Umar MSc, CEng MICE
Sultanate of Oman
Tel:0096896381864
E-mail: tariqumar1984@gmail.com   
Moshe W
493 Posts
Question:

If the Engineer will go to the UK or another Washingthon accord signee and earn second Bachelors degree by completing final year of that degree will this 
make any difference for the Engineering Council Pakistan?
While a case can be built and try to work with ECP on warming up toward the acceptance yet in many other countries this will be similar.
In Canada, if your degree is not Washington accord recognized or evaluated as equivalent from a country that is not a member in the accord there will be the same issue.  
Same in Israel you can't register if the degree is not up to their standard.
They do offer academic transformation, usually equal to one FT year in the University to come up to standard.
But some employers are able to hire a person as an Engineer based on their own decision. Somewhat similar to industrial exemption like in the USA.
The manufacturers and businesses apply some pressure on the government to ease the enforcement.   
 
 
Thanks, respected members specially Eng. Nouman Abid to giving very usefull information.. Regards.
Amjad Shah
7 Posts
I will beg to differ with a number of opinions being offered here, where my honourable colleagues suggested that in various countries if you do not have any equivalent education such as a 4 year bachelor degree, you can't be registered. Well, I agree that nations around the world can have different rules but they must not be discriminatory to a particular section. For example if PEC only register CEng. engineers after a 4 year engineering course and don't offer any alternative route to people who doesn't have the later than that is discrimination, and is the case here. This is never (or rather shouldn't be) allowed in any country's constiution.
My suggession will be to raise some funds and put a case in any of the five high courts in the country. I am happy to be a volunteer in this regard, from hiring some good solicitors to following it up. This endavour however will only be successful if all of the affected people follow the case with the full support of colleagues and our current Universities in the UK or elsewhere.

Thanks

Dr. Amjad Shah
PhD, CEng.
amjadashah@gmail.com
Simon Barker
887 Posts
I don't suppose you'll get anywhere with that lawsuit.

Discriminating against people who don't have the qualifications you require isn't illegal in any country that I'm aware of.
Imran Baig
7 Posts
PEC changed Rules in March 2015 and published on their website that Only CEng Intake/admissions before 31 March 2015 is valid for PEC registration....I applied for CEng in January 2015 and get CEng Title in July 2016...then, I applied for PEC registration....They simply rejected my case according to new rules...These new rules did not apply on me because my intake for CEng is January 2015....I don't know Y PEC did not follow their own rules....One case is also registered in Islamabad High Court by the PhD holders who have taken admissions in their PhDs before 2010....uptill 2010 PEC registered PhD in Engineering with non engineering background....I request Chairman PEC to follow their own rules and register PhD holders who taken admissions before 2010 and PhD holders who get Admissions in CEng before March 2015....Otherwise option of Court is available for all of us....
Amjad Shah
7 Posts
Well discrimination will not be the basis. You will be mistaken by the Pakistani judiciary. Currently it is going through a great renassiance and PEC problems with CEng. Is not the only issue currently it is facing. The courts have already ordered it to accept the technology bachelor's equivalent to University BSc eng. 

Moreover, the case is rather simple, the PEC cannot change its rules without due process of law by simply refusing to accept CEng after 2014. This alone is enough to overturn it's stance.
Imran Baig
7 Posts
"Second Schedule: (updated SRO: 47(I)/2017 Dated: January 18, 2017) Following Engineering Programmes/Professional Standings of various Universities/ Institutions and International Accords/Agreements outside Pakistan are declared as substantially equivalent qualification(s)/status by Pakistan Engineering Council (PEC):- Existing entries at Serial Nos.1 to 198, except Entry No. 111, 181, 182, 198 of the Second Schedule of PEC Act shall remain valid for Intake(s)/ admission(s) up to 31 March, 2015"... copied as it is from Pakistan Engineering Council Website ... Entry 111 is related to CEng ... 111. Engineering Council UK "Chartered Engineer"* *shall be eligible to be registered as Professional Engineer Now after March 2015..... 111. Engineering Council UK “Chartered Engineer” shall be eligible to be registered as “Professional Engineer” in the relevant discipline provided he/she possesses four years of engineering qualification and satisfies the PEC Regulations for Engineering Education ...... Kindly read carefully may be I am wrong.... If someone get Admissions in CEng before March 2015, can he apply for PEC registration?????????
Amjad Shah
7 Posts
If someone get Admissions in CEng before March 2015, can he apply for PEC registration?????????

First of all you don't get admission to CEng. prior to a specific date, you either get registered or not after there due process. Second of all, the whole discussion is about the fact that why on earth as PEC changed its rules without any solid reason. Hence a collective effort is needed not individual. 

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