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Dissociative Identity Disorder
Coby
61 Posts
Question
How does this forum protect itself against one lunatic with six different email addresses coming on and simply agreeing with himself all of the time?

One politician suffering with 'dissociative identity disorder' can theoretically vote for himself over and over again and really screw up a democratic system!

In old money; how do we guard against someone on here using "dead-men"?
29 Replies
Coby
61 Posts
The 'Mental Health Profession' was not born out of the 'Medical Profession', it was born out of the 'Penal System'!
Therefore the study of 'Mental Health' is in truth, the study of the 'Criminal Mind'!

If a person believing that it is acceptable to use 'dead-men' within an ordered society and therefore suffering with 'dissociative identity disorder' was for example, to come onto these forums using a number of different identities all agreeing with him/her no matter the risks involved or the deaths would inevitably occur, 'bullying' everyone else into accepting the inevitability of up coming changes to our Regulations that for example, would again and again increase the volume of current flow through all of the electric meters across the UK (having already done a deal to personally recoup at least a part of the increased finance generated), he/she would be described in 'Mental Health' terms as "criminally insane"!


 
Coby
61 Posts
"Perpetual motion"?
"It's conductive but it's not a conductor"?
"Efficiency is the use of more current than is required"?

There's a lunatic around here somewhere!
Simon Barker
806 Posts
This is a forum, not a democratic system.  Nothing of any importance gets decided here.  It's just people yakking, often to no effect.

If you really want to, you can "Like" a post, but don't assume that makes any difference to the people who are actually writing British or international standards.
" How does this forum protect itself against one lunatic with six different email addresses coming on and simply agreeing with himself all of the time?"

First of all you'll need a Prognosis : I've established that it isn't Friday. So  name these fellows.
Secondly,  each personality will need a diagnosis

"Summary. Dissociation is a mental process of disconnecting from one's thoughts, feelings, memories or sense of identity. The dissociative disorders that need professional treatment include dissociative amnesia, dissociative fugue, depersonalisation disorder and dissociative identity disorder."

I suspect that these people are in need of an occupation.
Legh

 
Coby
61 Posts
Explain acceptable voltage drop?
Rob Eagle
126 Posts
This thread is a bit weird.
Denis McMahon
315 Posts
Coby:
Explain acceptable voltage drop?

It is about to get weirder, Rob.

I can't explain acceptable voltage drop other than to explain that "voltage drop" is not an acceptable expression for an analytical engineer. My physics teacher, long ago  in school days, would mark our homework down if we used that expression. The correct expression is "potential difference". He would rig up glass accumulator cells, connected in various bizarre ways, and then check across various pairs of terminals with a voltmeter, to ram home the point. (Which he did very effectively - I remember those classes as though they were yesterday.)

Even the term "voltage" was not acceptable. We don' say "ohmage" for resistance, or "amperage" for current. (Well maybe we do for some specific commercial purposes, but not for formal engineering.)  "Voltage drop" is about as logical as "position displacement" for distance.

I'll leave others to come up with even sillier expressions.

I assure everyone that I use only one e-mail address in conjunction with this forum. I do admit to using "dead men". My physics teacher has probably passed on by now - RIP.

Meanwhile may I wish everyone a merry Jesus Birth Anniversary and a Happy Annual Time Increment!   🤔  
 

mapj1
2851 Posts
In response to the OP, I'm not sure it needs to "protect itself", is there any evidence that this is happening, and if   there is, is there any indication that it is causing a problem to anyone ?
I think there is a different problem, actually, of frightening off genuine posters by making the forum hard to use, and difficult to search. 
Treat what goes on here with the seriousness of a conversation in the pub, and you wont go far wrong.
regards
Mike.
Coby
61 Posts
(i) A 'Volt' is a unit of 'potential difference'.

(ii) Either there are a number of people using these forums who all have a complete lack of respect for the sanctity of human life (which is very unlikely among genuine electricians/electrical engineers as we all have the same basic fear of hurting someone given the 'power' that we control), or there is just one lunatic dogging these forums with a complete lack of respect for the sanctity of human life but a number of different email addresses.

(iii) The affect of a single lunatic dogging these forums and speaking up for himself all of the time and shouting others down, has been to disgrace our industry with the eventual publication of the 18th Edition!

Acceptable voltage drop
As an electrical engineer I'm just looking for two words "reasonable practicable", it would be nice if they were presented within a coherent sentence of some sort. So for example:
Acceptable voltage drop would be described as "a 'reasonable practicable' figure that would be acceptable as the solution to the inevitable problem of voltage drop within the hard wiring of an electrical circuit".

 
Rob Eagle
126 Posts
(i) Yes
(ii) Uh?
(iii) Uh?

Volt drop - volt drop limits, for installations, are defined in 7671, other than that it depends upon the equipment itself and its tolerance to voltage fluctuations, switch-mode power supplies, for example, generally work anywhere in between 90 - 260V so fairly tolerant to volt drop at 230V, other things may not be so, i.e. lamps. 
Coby
61 Posts
My elders and betters took 100 years to come up with a 'reasonable practicable' figure, then one lunatic suggests doubling it and agrees with himself half a dozen times
Result - it gets doubled.

That's extremely dangerous and quite frankly, disgraceful!
Simon Barker
806 Posts
Denis McMahon:

I can't explain acceptable voltage drop other than to explain that "voltage drop" is not an acceptable expression for an analytical engineer. My physics teacher, long ago  in school days, would mark our homework down if we used that expression. The correct expression is "potential difference". He would rig up glass accumulator cells, connected in various bizarre ways, and then check across various pairs of terminals with a voltmeter, to ram home the point. (Which he did very effectively - I remember those classes as though they were yesterday.)

Even the term "voltage" was not acceptable. We don' say "ohmage" for resistance, or "amperage" for current. (Well maybe we do for some specific commercial purposes, but not for formal engineering.)  "Voltage drop" is about as logical as "position displacement" for distance.
 

You can whinge about terminology all you like, but my Collins English Dictionary lists both "voltage" and "amperage" as words.

Trying to explain "voltage drop" is a lot easier than something like "difference in potential difference".

Coby
61 Posts
Rob Eagle:

(ii) Uh?
(iii) Uh?




 

When someone puts up a post discussing the importance of us all having respect for the sanctity of human life, it would be extremely difficult to imagine a more graphic example of a 'lack of' respect for the sanctity of human life than the two responses above!

Rob Eagle
126 Posts
I never use "Amperage", it's a bit like saying Miles per Hourage rather than speed, it just doesn't work.  Voltage seems OK though.
Rob Eagle
126 Posts
"Lack of respect for the sanctity of human life", well that's a though one!  I think that one's a bit above my pay grade as they say, I didn't design life so I have had little input into it and also to whether it should be respected at a sanctity level.  There is one thing that is an absolute certainty in life though and that is one day you will die, so, so much for respect for life there then.
Sparkingchip
3602 Posts
Most installation electricians don’t even consider voltage drop, because they have so much wriggle room.

If asked to do some installation work on a boat with a 12 volt electrical system they may well cause all sorts of issues.

Are some people just too focused to be able to see the complete picture?

They know what they know with limitations?
Coby
61 Posts
Rob Eagle:
"Lack of respect for the sanctity of human life", well that's a though one!  I think that one's a bit above my pay grade as they say, I didn't design life so I have had little input into it and also to whether it should be respected at a sanctity level.  There is one thing that is an absolute certainty in life though and that is one day you will die, so, so much for respect for life there then.

So you don't agree that 'having respect for the sanctity of human life' was the reason for writing a set of regulations in the first place then?

Rob Eagle
126 Posts
I don't think "sanctity of life" is necessarily the only reason for regulation, I think there was also a great desire not to have major capital assets destroyed by fire, including peoples homes too. 
There is actually a monetary value that can be placed on life so "sanctity" is not absolute.
Denis McMahon
315 Posts
Rob Eagle:
. . .
Volt drop - volt drop limits, for installations, are defined in 7671, other than that it depends upon the equipment itself and its tolerance to voltage fluctuations, switch-mode power supplies, for example, generally work anywhere in between 90 - 260V so fairly tolerant to volt drop at 230V, other things may not be so, i.e. lamps. 

Now we are getting somewhere! Fluctuation in supply pressure, as compared with drop of potential along a conductor. Not the same thing. We need to be sure what we are talking about. I agree that in this case we need a simple term to describe what is happening. "Electro-motive force deviation" is too ponderous a term. If we need to quantify this, there is surely no harm in stating the quantifying unit?

I do maintain that my physics teacher was right in discouraging the term "volt drop" in analysis of an electrical network, even though the penalty may have been a bit heavy. I discouraged it myself in my lecturing days. Students using the expression in an ambiguous way tended to lose the plot.

One problem is that some basic units of measurement have no formal definition; we must use some inadequate synonym, e.g. "electrical pressure" for electro-motive force. Hence the customary usage of simple terms like "voltage". It does no harm where we need no rigourous analysis. "Potential" is of course a word with a broader meaning - "capability of achievement".  

It is interesting to note that in devices like motors, transformers, etc., engineers sometimes use the term "back e.m.f." rather than "back voltage". Perhaps because this is rigourous analysis.

Denis McMahon
315 Posts
Simon Barker:

. . .

You can whinge about terminology all you like, but my Collins English Dictionary lists both "voltage" and "amperage" as words.

Trying to explain "voltage drop" is a lot easier than something like "difference in potential difference".

Dictionaries are very useful but they are not everything. I checked in the Concise Oxford Dictionary; it also contains the words "amperage" and "voltage". Is a dictionary a book of rules of language, or is it a representation of customary practice? I think the answer is somewhere between these extremes.

Let us look at another example - "footage". This is sometimes used to refer to period of run of cine film. I once read somewhere that celluloid film passes through the projector at a speed of approximately one foot per second, so the time and length become interchangeable. The term has stuck with electronically generated moving pictures. I suppose "secondage" does not roll of the tongue so easily, though it would be more to the point.

Here are some other examples of "age" appended to a unit name, which are or are not in popular usage.

In use                                   Not in use

mileage    distance            knottage  nautical speed

acreage  land area            chainage  distance

wattage  power                  joulage  energy

poundage  surcharge        dollarage  !

tonnage  cargo capacity    grammage  mass

We may need to form our own conclusions why some of these expressions have caught on and others have not.

Rob Eagle
126 Posts
Hoover is in the dictionary too.
Andy Millar
1750 Posts
Denis McMahon:

 Is a dictionary a book of rules of language, or is it a representation of customary practice? 

Customary practice - dictionary compilers are quite clear on this. Hence the fact that organisations that work with words have their own style guides (note guides, not rules), and there are several published which are occasionally (as the modern ones will admit) contradictory. Not surprising as English is a mongrel (not a bad thing) and ever-developing language. 

Having been married to a editor (and past-sub-editor) of scientific books and journals for over 30 years I've heard all about this for a long time! As a freelancer her first task with a new client is to find out what their house guidelines are. In the end, all that actually matters is whether the language in a particular document is at risk of mis-interpretation by the audience for which it is intended, and that depends very much on the context.

My favourite book in my wife's library is Bill Bryson's "Troublesome Words", mainly because I find it an excellent and pragmatic style guide in its own right (IIRC he wrote it when he was a copy editor for The Times), but also because he has great fun pointing out how often those who set themselves up as authorities struggle to consistently stick to their own "rules". (For example trying desperately to avoid split infinitives...)

We also have great fun with our friends from Germanic countries trying to learn English, eventually the light bulb goes on when they realise there actually are no hard and fast rules...as they put it beautifully in Pirates of the Caribbean: "the code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules". You just have to go with it.

Personally I think there are bigger problems in the world to worry about right now, and what we need to be concentrating on is (safely and responsibly) advancing technology to solve them...and even in the day job, when I'm reviewing technical safety cases, what I'm concerned about is whether the language used is absolutely clear and cannot possibly be misinterpreted, NOT whether it is etymologically valid! I certainly wouldn't raise an observation if someone, for example, used the words "voltage drop", it's a widely used and well understood term with no other meaning if used correctly in context. (Unlike, to give the example we were given in my college days which I still remember: "Pull out the fixing pin. If it is bent, replace it." Which uses simple correct individual words but put together is a downright dangerous instruction to write in a manual. That's the sort of thing I'm always trying to spot and I'd suggest we need to keep watching out for.) 

But that all said I still don't like the sign "No access for HGV's" even though 50% of style guides say it's correct...just makes me think "No access for HGV's what?" However I try to keep reminding myself as above that there are more important things to worry about. Which is why I don't proof read my posts for spelling and grammar thoroughly 😉

Cheers,

Andy

Andy Millar
1750 Posts
P.S. I told my wife I'd written this, and she was saying how much she enjoyed this tweet:
Richard Osman
@richardosman
·
Dec 31, 2018
My New Year’s Resolution is to annoy less grammar pedants.
Rob Eagle
126 Posts
I review many technical submissions and the quality of the document is important to me, it gives me confidence in the capability of the submitting company, whether it should or not is questionable.
Ultra Electronics are the best and Capula the worst.  Am I allowed to say that?
Denis McMahon
315 Posts
Rob Eagle:
Hoover is in the dictionary too.

What point are you trying to make here, Rob?

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