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DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

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DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by CliveS on Dec 12, 2019 4:29 am

Solar panels are quite inefficient as the radiation shining on the earth surface is over 1 kW per square metre but we will be lucky at midday to manage to capture 100 Watts.  But yet this is a really large amount of energy if we had say a square kilometre of panels.  I calculate it to be 100 MWatts at peak.  Recently I was Chile in the Atacama desert and took attached photo thumbnail?appId=YMailNorrin&downloadWhen

Now there are power lines there but we only saw one block of solar panels during our 1000 km trip.   There is no vegetation for animals to eat and no water for trees so the land is just barren a useless waste of space but if used to collect energy a miraculous godsend.  Putting solar panels up in England is wasteful of land that can be used for agriculture and anyway we do not receive the full desert heat that the Sahara can supply.
What if UK were to purchase 10km by 10km or 100 square kilometres of desert which at peak gives 10 gigaWatts of power nearly a quarter of our power needs but how to transmit it is a problem that needs solving unless we do a deal with Gibraltar/Spain sort of import/export deal?. 

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by OMS on Dec 12, 2019 11:17 am

Mate of mine is working on a scheme in the Sahara that has a significant area of solar collectors concentrated on a solar furnace - it's linked with the large scale "Noor" project in Morroco

Boil water, make steam, generate power, hydrolise water, compress and export hydrogen for fuel - currently it's small scale , but readily scaleable

One idea is to build the hydrogen fuel cells in Europe and "tanker" the Hydrogen across

Scale it up and it provides a lot of employment, builds an economy, reduces migration, reduces oil dependence and returns large parts of the middle east to worthless patches of barren nothingness and brings about a bit of peace and quiet for a change

What's not to like

The alternative would be to organise a coup and take over Mali and secure the uranium for our next generation of SMR's - which also has the advantage of annoying the French

Regards

OMS
The trap we've fallen into is to believe that a thousand incompetents properly organized can do the job of a few dozen outstanding people

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Dec 12, 2019 1:32 pm

The DESERTEC project, stalled 4 or 5 years ago, was looking to do similar, and connect N Africa to Europe and transfer solar electricity under the Med via High Voltage DC. 
https://newint.org/features/2015/03/01/desertec-long 
https://www.desertec.org/concept-note/

Could also convert the solar energy for instant use or into a form of stored energy to transport in a number of ways for a plethora of uses (electricity, heat, fuel, chemicals, etc).

This would be a great use of otherwise unusable and generally unaccessible 'wasteland (deserts)' and allow resource dwindling unsustainable fossil fuel (oil and gas) income reliant MENA countries transition to inexhaustible sustainable clean energy reliant countries - seems to be a win win in many respects.

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Dec 13, 2019 1:04 pm

CliveS:
Solar panels are quite inefficient as the radiation shining on the earth surface is over 1 kW per square metre but we will be lucky at midday to manage to capture 100 Watts.  But yet this is a really large amount of energy if we had say a square kilometre of panels.  I calculate it to be 100 MWatts at peak.  Recently I was Chile in the Atacama desert and took attached photo thumbnail?appId=YMailNorrin&downloadWhen

Now there are power lines there but we only saw one block of solar panels during our 1000 km trip.   There is no vegetation for animals to eat and no water for trees so the land is just barren a useless waste of space but if used to collect energy a miraculous godsend.  Putting solar panels up in England is wasteful of land that can be used for agriculture and anyway we do not receive the full desert heat that the Sahara can supply.
What if UK were to purchase 10km by 10km or 100 square kilometres of desert which at peak gives 10 gigaWatts of power nearly a quarter of our power needs but how to transmit it is a problem that needs solving unless we do a deal with Gibraltar/Spain sort of import/export deal?. 

The place appears to be just here:
https://www.lifegate.com/people/lifestyle/chile-atacama-1-solar-power-plant
https://www.britannica.com/place/Atacama-Desert
But also:
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/2019/09/09/clean-energy-investment-set-to-hit-2-6-trillion-this-decade/
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/2019/10/16/carbon-free-are-we-at-a-tipping-point/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rew_wc_promo&utm_source=enl&utm_content=2019-12-03&eid=318385012&bid=2568252
 

 
LUCIANO BACCO

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by CliveS on Dec 13, 2019 9:26 pm

Maurice, Am I right in believing that Desertec never managed to start generation due to political problems in north Africa. I found this rather worrying summary at end of a write-up   
 " Whether fossil fuelled or renewable, energy schemes that don’t benefit the people where the energy is extracted, that serve to prop up authoritarian and repressive regimes or only enrich a tiny minority of voracious elites and transnationals are scandalous and must be resisted.              Advocates for benign-sounding clean energy export projects like Desertec need to be careful they’re not supporting a new ‘renewable energy grab’: after oil, gas, gold, diamonds and cotton, is it now the turn of solar energy to maintain the global imperial dominance of the West over the rest of the planet? "


The idea of just purchasing a 100 square kilometres of desert has obviously been tried already and proved to cause local/national problems; if we are require to pay bribes to obtain planning consents from government officials. 

Should we offer a north African country of choice, an interest free overseas aid loan to develop a solar generation plant, photovoltaic or high pressure steam,  knowing that it will save that country building the normally cheaper hydrocarbon fuel alternative power stations. This will save CO2 emissions now and please note once we have satisfied the local country demand, it might then be possible to expand the project and export the surplus power overseas; to everyone's benefit. 

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Dec 14, 2019 10:55 am

Clive, you raise an important point about blindly moving from a fossil-fuel funded elitist governing scenario (OPEC oil and gas) to a clean energy funded elitist governing scenario (wind, solar, wave, tidal, etc) via a 'business/operating as usual' approach. Many country elites will exploit their nation's natural resources and populations no matter what they are governing over (diamonds, gold, wheat, water, cattle, minerals, land, energy, etc), so IMHO this is a wider issue than just contracting with countries for better/cleaner energy of various colours and flavours.

However, I believe a transition to clean and responsible energy offers an opportunity to evolve the political and economic engagement with country elites and transition to responsible governance and responsible business arrangements. However, changing from poor governance by corrupt elites into better governance ethos (not necessarily a western governance model) with responsible and ethnically/culturally/religiously fairer governments that work better for the good, and citizens, of a nation will take strong incentives to change, nudging with the right 'carrots and sticks', and personal, business, ethical and cultural change for many.

How does one break the negativity of 'power corrupts' cycles and stressed and strained cultures ingrained in many societies?

Our democracies in the west aren't perfect as we still have many elites, inequalities and poverty within our 'democratic' countries. We have also suffered the 'blow back' consequences (but not necessarily learned the lessons of) trying to impose 'western democracy' on nations that may not be suited to our model of operating, and have violently rejected 'imposed imperialism, Westernism, and capitalism' that ignores embedded wider issues.

However, some form of 'nationally attuned benevolent dictatorship' could turn countries around - but when does a benevolent dictator just become a dictator? Many cite Singapore, early Turkey, Oman, Seychelles, as examples of countries that provide good governance via a form of benevolent dictatorship. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship 
 
There will always be the 'exploiters' and the 'exploited', but perhaps we could reduce the latter with smarter use of clean energy to bring 'power to the people'?

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by CliveS on Dec 15, 2019 8:43 am

Maurice, your statement that  " Our democracies in the west aren't perfect as we still have many elites, inequalities and poverty within our 'democratic' countries. We have also suffered the 'blow back' consequences (but not necessarily learned the lessons of) trying to impose 'western democracy' on nations that may not be suited to our model of operating, and have violently rejected 'imposed imperialism, Westernism, and capitalism' that ignores embedded wider issues. "

The wider issue problem is really that young people want to be useful and work to develop their own countries.  So what can be more annoying than being like Chile with world beating reserves of Copper and Lithium and now to learn that western companies are also about to steal their solar power whilst they remain out of work. 

If you were in Santiago wouldn't you be out on the streets with your children trying to find out who in Chile is getting a kickback in the way of a bribe or favour of some kind???   Western companies want to maximize profits; so need to get planning permission and export licenses at minimum cost which may mean greasing someones hand!!  A NO BRAINER but you also need their military to protect the asset on your side don't you??

SO who is to blame for the problem in Chile??  Not the people, they just need a job for their children, not the president as he has not done anything wrong, could the elites in the military/police be possibly implicated which is what the public seem to believe, with so many disappeared students?? 

Engineers fully understand that we need globally, to develop desert solar energy sources although at a hugely uneconomical capital cost of over $1 per Watt which we developed nations should  pay to desert nations to get at the CO2 carbon free magnoflux energy in order to save the planet. 

BUT how in Gods name can we get there without causing the desert nations unemployed to react in a negative manner?? 

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Dec 15, 2019 4:00 pm

A first : How to profitably up-cycle 80 million tonnes of PV waste by 2050 https://pictures.ozy.com/pictures/600xany/0/2/8/133028_gettyimages849056020.jpg
https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2019/05/06/how-to-profitably-up-cycle-80-million-tonnes-of-pv-waste-by-2050/
Here are, anyway, two good endorsements to your assertion: We are now close to Solar Panels 30% efficiency
https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/power-from-commercial-perovskite-solar-cells-is-coming-soon?utm_source=techalert&utm_campaign=techalert-01-10-19&utm_medium=emailhttps://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/power-from-commercial-perovskite-solar-cells-is-coming-soon?utm_source=techalert&utm_campaign=techalert-01-10-19&utm_medium=email

We Could Power The Entire World By Harnessing Solar Energy From 1% Of The Sahara https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/09/22/we-could-power-the-entire-world-by-harnessing-solar-energy-from-1-of-the-sahara/#7df1cb77d440
LUCIANO BACCO

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Dec 15, 2019 9:03 pm

It's for national populations to choose their leadership and governments, not have them imposed on them by external forces.

However, international leadership and diplomatic pressure and incentives, international trade, and responsible corporate leverage, nudges, and contract conditions, rather than BAU 'smash and grab easy profits and rewards for the few' corporate tactics, enforcement of anti-bribery, anti-corruption, and responsible and ethical business practices can assist in helping developing nations transform into responsible governance structures. If w answer the 'what's in it for me' question, then perhaps behaviours will change for the better for developing nation governments and their populations - a safe, fairly treated, content and self-fulfilling population isn't likely to react negatively against its government or migrate.

Those with clean energy assets and resources to assist in national development and responsible socio-economic and technical development that benefits both us and them have much potential. We should use sustainable and responsible procurement to generate triple bottom line (people, profit, planet) benefits for all.

We help nations exploit their clean energy resources to develop their countries and bring benefit to their wider population, but it needs to be done responsibly and not in a 'lining the elite's pockets' way. Will be difficult, but is necessary and possible I believe.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/09/serious-about-sustainability-get-serious-about-corruption/ 

Perhaps brining together UK's FCO, DFID and overseas business and economic/export departments would assist in this via a 'joined up' government and business focus and strategy to use diplomatic, business and development levers in a coherent and coordinated manner to use UK's 'soft power' influence for change for the good in target countries? Each target country will need its own fine-tuned strategy and coordinated plan, and ideally international coordination and cooperation.

 

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Dec 15, 2019 9:13 pm

Forgot to add this link 
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/09/serious-about-sustainability-get-serious-about-corruption/ 

UK government has a great opportunity to bring clean energy to the UK in many ways whilst helping poorer nations develop using renewable energy technologies, by using its huge overseas influence, post BREXIT overseas trade agreements, and DFID funds, but not via BAU, but smart influence and longterm, enduring incentives for the many, not the few.

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Jan 20, 2020 9:44 am

Total, Marubeni to Invest in 800-Megawatt Qatar Solar Plant

Like many of its oil-rich neighbors, Qatar, the world’s biggest exporter of liquefied natural gas, is pushing into solar power and other forms of renewables for its local energy needs.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-19/total-marubeni-to-sign-qatar-solar-power-plant-deals-poster
Also:
https://www.streetinsider.com/Business+Wire/Total+to+Develop+Qatar%E2%80%99s+First+Large-Scale+%28800+MWp%29+Solar+Plant/16349490.html?classic=1
https://www.jccp.or.jp/international/conference/docs/14assessment-of-solar-and-wind-energy-potential-in.pdf
https://solargis.com/maps-and-gis-data/download/qatar

 
LUCIANO BACCO

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Jan 20, 2020 11:50 am

KSA has also seen the end of fossil fuels coming and the need to transition to clean energy for many years, both to keep itself in the energy provider sector, but also to support socio-economic growth - https://oxfordbusinessgroup.com/news/plan-turn-saudi-arabia-renewable-energy-leader Transition from solar-originated underground oil and gas energy sources to solar-originated above ground clean energy - progress and evolution.

Provide clean energy directly via HVDC links or indirectly via an energy carrier source such as H2, syngas, etc.

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Jan 20, 2020 12:20 pm

I cannot be clearer than that!...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/05/why-oil-rich-gulf-countries-need-to-invest-in-renewable-energy/
https://geographical.co.uk/people/development/item/3507-the-future-of-oil-states
https://wedocs.unep.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.11822/29752/GTR2019.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
LUCIANO BACCO

Re: DESERT 100 MEGAWATTS PER SQUARE KILOMETRE. HOW CAN WE MOVE IT TO THE UK ??

Posted by Luciano Bacco on Feb 12, 2020 6:50 am

Sub-Saharan countries excluding South Africa likely to install 1.2GW of renewable capacity in 2021
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/2020/02/07/sub-saharan-countries-excluding-south-africa-likely-to-install-1-2gw-of-renewable-capacity-in-2021/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=rew_weekly_newsletter&utm_source=enl&utm_content=2020-02-12
LUCIANO BACCO

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