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ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

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ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by CliveS on Nov 7, 2019 10:01 am

If we allow fully electric vehicles on our motorways then for sure some of them are going to fail going up a steep hill.  Should the highways agency be planning to install charging points at the bottom of all hills do you think??

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Alasdair Anderson on Nov 7, 2019 10:16 am

If they fail going up the hill, they will already be past the charging point if that is at the bottom of the hill - but if they put it part way up, some may not be able to reach it......
I think the answer is no different from service stations and fuel - don't let your fuel tank (or battery) get so low that you cant reach the next fuel pump (or charging station).

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 7, 2019 11:34 am

England enjoys an image of the realm of electric cars. In our imagination, living in a reality where the number of electric vehicles is counted in the centuries, in England every second vehicle is electric and every street corner has a charging stand. Maybe even some. Because they are so advanced in England that there is clearly competition between charging companies. It's a data-based similarity. England ranks third (after Norway and Germany) in the number of electric vehicle deliveries. And in 2018, it posted a 28% increase in sales.
Regards, DAVODIAN BENYAMIN

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Dbat on Nov 7, 2019 12:08 pm

No different to cars running out of petrol up a steep hill is it?

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 7, 2019 12:25 pm

Only electric cars.
Regards, DAVODIAN BENYAMIN

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Malcolm Davies on Nov 7, 2019 12:46 pm

In the UK, with its very high density of traffic flows, the impact of any single vehicle break down on the traffic flow - due to 'running out of energy or fuel' - can be considerable. I would like to popose that all motor vehicles - regrdless of the energy source or fuel used - should employ far more intelligent journey planning and trip computer systems. Increasingly, in our busy daily routines, we are learning to rely on so called intelligent systems and visual aids - such as Satellite Navigation Systems - to look after us and do the planning for us. To this end it would be beneficial if it became normal, by design, for the SAT NAV system, built into so many modern cars, to be integrated into the cars trip computer system to require that a 'journey plan' be entered into the SAT NAV before starting off which would then advise on such things as when and where to stop for fuel or energy 'top ups' both prior to and during each and every journey planned. If properly designed and implemented, such a system could greatly reduce the number of 'unexpected breakdowns' on any journey much to the benefit of all. Clearly, for this scheme to work really effectively, it would be necessary for the location, availability. and even possibly 'forward booking' status of all electric vehicle/hydrogen powered charging points to be updated and added to the SAT NAV data base on a regular basis - by the inclusion of a SIM based mobile phone air interface into every such SAT NAV system, We have all this technology now - why not make use of it?
 

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Simon Barker on Nov 7, 2019 1:27 pm

CliveS:
If we allow fully electric vehicles on our motorways then for sure some of them are going to fail going up a steep hill.  Should the highways agency be planning to install charging points at the bottom of all hills do you think??

 
What do you mean "If"?  they are already driving up and down our motorways with no restrictions.

You seem to be under the impression that electric cars have no battery gauges and are liable to suddenly stop half way up a hill, with no warning.  In reality, it's no different to the risk of running out of petrol or diesel half way up a hill - it's only going to happen if the driver fails to check the remaining charge/fuel level from time to time. 

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by mapj1 on Nov 7, 2019 3:26 pm

If the battery car breaks down because the low battery warning is not working properly, it will be no different to the equivalent fault in a diesel or petrol car. The AA or other will tow it to somewhere it can be refueled or recharged, but it is likely to be a far rarer event than a crash.
 
regards Mike

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 7, 2019 3:33 pm

Managing your Low Carbon Vehicle (LCV) 'fuel' in an Electric Vehicle (electrons), Fuel Cell EV or Hydrogen vehicle (H2 and electrons) is no different to managing your LPG, petrol or diesel in vehicles today. Perhaps use the very convenient 'fuel status' indicator, or 'remaining miles to refuel' facility, in the instrument panel to inform when to refuel, take notice of that flashing 'low on fuel' light and buzzer, and use common sense so you don't let your 'tank run dry' - my general rule of thumb, refuel at next opportunity just before tank goes below 1/4 full. Alternatively, like I had on an old motorbike, design LCVs to have a reserve 'fuel' tank that can be switched in manually to get you 20-30 miles to next refill station if you can't manage your primary fuel storage on board.

The emergency services are now evolving to provide 'electron jerry cans' (battery boost/charge) and 'H2 jerry cans' (H2 boost/charge) to help those stranded in their LCVs on the road side to get to the next refill station.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/how-car-breakdown-services-are-changing/n19952  
 

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 7, 2019 5:00 pm

Hello everyone, 
I come from the field of Mechanical Engineering in Automotive and Automation. 
I share with community members about car maintenance and cost-effectiveness and it is: 
This is essentially a technological revolution because an electric motor provides some distinct advantages over an internal combustion engine. First, it has far fewer moving parts - only about 20 versus about 200 in a standard engine. It does not depend on liquids - not propulsion (fuel), no shielding (oil), and since it is not based on combustion, nor for cooling. It is so quiet that electric models are already selling artificial noise to prevent accidents. An electric motor does not need a transmission system ("chalk"), it accelerates and decelerates faster and requires at least treatments, and of course, it saves significantly on energy costs. However, the electric car revolution is not only about technological innovation. This is a tectonic shift in economic and even political terms. for example, China is using the electric vehicle as a means of gaining significant market share in the global automotive market, with the aim of ousting European and Japanese manufacturers from its control - somewhat like it has done in the field of consumer electronics. European countries encourage the development of electric vehicles to reduce pollutant emissions, while Israel encourages its development to reduce its dependence on oil, partly because of geopolitical reasons in the Middle East context.
Regards, DAVODIAN BENYAMIN

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Denis McMahon on Nov 8, 2019 12:56 pm

Benyamin Davodian:
. . .  In our imagination, living in a reality where the number of electric vehicles is counted in the centuries, in England every second vehicle is electric and every street corner has a charging stand. . . .

We don't have a filling station on every street corner, but for years petrol and diesel vehicles have managed without  them.
Denis McMahon, BSc, MIET, MBCS, PGCE

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 8, 2019 1:35 pm

Hello Michael,
In England compared to other countries there is more (probably not long ago was outside the UK). The law requires that an electric vehicle sold must receive a charging service and with no then is a problem that needs to be checked and addressed. Anyway I know England is a fast developing country.
Regards, DAVODIAN BENYAMIN

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 8, 2019 1:53 pm

Denis, I agree, seems we need a sensible and pragmatic approach so we don't re-invent or discard a perfectly good, heavily invested in, re-fuelling infrastructure we have for fossil-fuelled vehicles that could be used for LCVs. We don't keep topping up our fossil-fuelled vehicles from a 'home or work refinery' to ensure we don't run out of petrol/diesel whenever we park up, so why the obsession with having to install millions of charging points to keep batteries topped up for a LCV era? There is an advantage with 'smart storage' when that comes along, that storage in vehicles could become part of a 'virtual storage farm' when the vehicles are not required, but this could provide connectivity in a number of ways, including trailing power cables.

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by mapj1 on Nov 8, 2019 3:35 pm

The hiccup is one of rate of transfer of energy - the speed to refuel a petrol car means the service station borders on the burn rate equivalent to a modest power station
(call it 10 killowatt hours per litre for unleaded and easy nos, so a 3/4 fil up of say 30 litres is 300 kWhrs. In 180 seconds = 1/20 of an hour, so  ~ 6 megawatts delivery rate per pump. At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy). 
It is quite practical to fill up in 3 minutes, and in 2 more to have paid and be driving off. 

Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVA per good charge, but even so unless you have a battery swap scheme, recharging mid-journey is a much slower  business, so at any time, more cars will be parked up and buzzing merrily for  an hour or so at a time - so filling up at home before you even get in it has some appeal.

 typical family EV  has a charge rate of 23mph (so to put enough in for a 23mile range takes an hour sitting on charge) or more like 100 miles in an hour if fast charge is available. Not exactly quick, if you are going a long way.
regards Mike

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Denis McMahon on Nov 9, 2019 8:48 am

mapj1:
The hiccup is one of rate of transfer of energy - the speed to refuel a petrol car means the service station borders on the burn rate equivalent to a modest power station . . .
 

Thanks, Mike. A very relevant point! Hence it will become popular for motorists to charge their vehicles at home overnight.
Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVA

 

Even if they have no more than a 13 A socket to plug into, that should provide 30 kWh overnight. A proper charging point will provide much more. (Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)

This is OK, at any rate, for those fortunate enough to have drives or garages to park their cars off-road. For someone living in a 3rd storey flat and having to park on-street, it will be less easy. Hence there will need to be plenty of fast charging points in shopping centre car parks and such like, where cars can charge while owners shop. This is already starting to happen where I live.

There still seems to be a lot of focus and worry about long range capabilities of electric cars. Many cars however are used mainly as short-journey runabouts and only occasionally take long motorway journeys. For those long journeys, advantage will need to be taken of charging points at service areas. This will require half an hour or so, but one should take breaks every 2 hours or so on a motorway journey anyway.

At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy

I seldom see more than about five cars filling up at a motorway service area, even when all three lanes are thick with traffic and the refreshment area are heaving. It seems most motorists prefer to tank up at a local supermarket before a long journey - can't think why! With electric cars it may not be possible to fully charge in advance for a long journey, and we will need to provide much more than five charge points at each service area, and again this is already happening.
Denis McMahon, BSc, MIET, MBCS, PGCE

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by mapj1 on Nov 9, 2019 11:10 am

(Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)

I think we could also start a whole topic on the updates needed to the way we run the LV (230/400) network. At the moment the substations are all sized on about 2kVA per house, because that is the average demand over time, smoothed over a large number of houses, so a 400A substation fuse feeds 25-35 houses, each of whom imagine they have a 100A supply, and perhaps  half a dozen street lights. Adding charge points for the first 1% who would like one is easy, as the extra load is negligible.  When that becomes something like 10% all charging at once, the substation is overloaded.
And there is a problem for all those cars parked nose to tail on both sides of terraced streets - I'm not sure we want extension leads out of every bedroom window, but at the cheap end of town it is what we will get if we do not make a formal provision.
The average UK car does around 10k miles a year    That is  30 miles a day, again smoothed over many.  That 30kVA mentioned above, gets perhaps you perhaps100 miles so recharge every 3 to 4 days, or more likely, a shorter charge taken more often, but a similar total.

It will sort of work, but no without a lot of careful load management, and maybe adding thermostatic fans on the substations. one of many ideas being trialled as we type..

regards Mike

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by CliveS on Nov 9, 2019 11:14 am

Thanks Denis,
I agree that electric cars and much cleaner than hybrid vehicles for short trips in a city but are risky to take up the motorway if you trying to get somewhere within a reasonable time.  Although there are just sufficient charging points for the present; the EVs still need at least half an hour each to charge up their battery.  Can you imagine if you are third in line how frustrating that would be? 
To solve that problem each motorway service station could become a mini power station with say a 5 MW generator of its own. But the genset would burn diesel, petrol or gas which is the same fuel the hybrid car is using already.  
 

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 9, 2019 11:19 am

Clive, turning a petrol/diesel re-fuelling station into a LCV re-fuelling station is a sensible approach, but why does the XMW power generation need to come from a diesel genset? It could come easily be produced from a 'green grid' connection (the Grid is rapidly de-carbonising), or nearby wind/solar/hydro farms with biomass and storage backup, etc.

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Malcolm Davies on Nov 11, 2019 9:39 am

I can offer the following opinions:

1) Since battery electric cars have a range of anything between 75 and 200 miles when carrying passengers and being driven normally and conventional cars offer anything from 300 milles to 600 miles then an electric car is 3 to 4 times more prone to break downs whilst hill climbing per 1000 miles of motoring, than a conventional car.

2) Two way charging points installed at home are now well developed and energy suppliers have been running Vehicle to Grid (V2G) trials with volunteers who have a Leaf, Zoe, i3 or similar for over 18 months in the UK - whereby the trialists get all their electric motoring for next to no cost due to the generous feed in tarrifs offered.

3)  From 1). above, it seems reasonable to state that the current crop of battery electric cars, with kerb weights between 1200 Kg and 1800 Kg, carrying almost exhausted battery packs ranging from 100Kg to 300 Kg, loosely based on conventional ICE engined bodies, subframes and cycle parts, are not designed to be suitable for any journeys beyond their real world range.

 

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by mapj1 on Nov 11, 2019 4:42 pm

I'd not consider running out of fuel / charge  to be a breakdown of the vehicle.
More  a failure of the driver to understand the correct operation of the machine. There is no excuse for either, unless the fuel gauge is defective.
regards Mike

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by CliveS on Nov 11, 2019 5:04 pm

Maurice,
Take a look at the nat grid site," https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ " and you will see that all the wind/solar/hydro is already being used to base load the grid.  The grid is already having to use CCGT combine cycle generation plant that is using gas or oil fired plant.  If we want to generate more power to charge up electric vehicles then we must build more power station that will be burning gas or oil fuels at an efficiency of 60%.  This is a huge capital cost but does not reduce our dependence on the gas and fuel-oil used overall just where it is produced.
Much better to make the motor industry produce more efficient hybrid engines with variable speed electric transmission rather than clutch and gearboxes and save the grid power for manufacturing and domestic use.   Put solar panels on all roofs facing south could be a much more worthwhile investment rather than building more power stations

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by mapj1 on Nov 12, 2019 1:51 pm

It is very telling to look at historical snapshots of that Gridwatch site as it shows just how much and how fast  the generating mixture has changed in recent years

in 2011   we had more power from coal than nuclear,  and wind was almost a vanity novelty thing, at about 3% of the total
by 2014  coal still dominant, over nuclear and gas but wind looking more serious as 10% up to 14%  of the total on a  low demand day
 by 2016   coal had slipped behind nuclear and gas, into 3rd place and wind is still going up .
by 2018   coal is clearly on the way out, gas in the lead, and wind and nuclear fighting for 2nd  place
by early 2019   wind is in clear 2nd place generating just under a quarter of total, gas in 1st,  coal even further down.

I appreciate that from day to day it flops about a lot, as the weather varies but it would be a brave person who tried to say where it will be even in 5 years time, let alone 10 or 20, though there is a trend to low carbon sources, more wind to come from offshore  and I expect that to continue,  and I don't know about you but I will probably still be driving the same car at least in 5 years time.
If the distribution network changed at the same speed as the generation is doing, it would be unrecognisable.

 
regards Mike

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Michael Wrigley on Nov 12, 2019 6:05 pm

I suspect that, if the authors had recent experience of the German highways, several contributions to this thread would have been rather different.

Re: ELECTRIC CHARGING POINTS ON MOTORWAYS

Posted by Simon Barker on Nov 12, 2019 10:14 pm

Michael Wrigley:
I suspect that, if the authors had recent experience of the German highways, several contributions to this thread would have been rather different.

 
Do you care to enlighten us?

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