Log in to the online community
- New Question
Posted by CliveS on Nov 7, 2019 10:01 am
Posted by Alasdair Anderson on Nov 7, 2019 10:16 am
I think the answer is no different from service stations and fuel - don't let your fuel tank (or battery) get so low that you cant reach the next fuel pump (or charging station).
Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 7, 2019 11:34 am
Posted by Malcolm Davies on Nov 7, 2019 12:46 pm
Posted by Simon Barker on Nov 7, 2019 1:27 pm
If we allow fully electric vehicles on our motorways then for sure some of them are going to fail going up a steep hill. Should the highways agency be planning to install charging points at the bottom of all hills do you think??
You seem to be under the impression that electric cars have no battery gauges and are liable to suddenly stop half way up a hill, with no warning. In reality, it's no different to the risk of running out of petrol or diesel half way up a hill - it's only going to happen if the driver fails to check the remaining charge/fuel level from time to time.
Posted by mapj1 on Nov 7, 2019 3:26 pm
Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 7, 2019 3:33 pm
The emergency services are now evolving to provide 'electron jerry cans' (battery boost/charge) and 'H2 jerry cans' (H2 boost/charge) to help those stranded in their LCVs on the road side to get to the next refill station.
Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 7, 2019 5:00 pm
I come from the field of Mechanical Engineering in Automotive and Automation.
I share with community members about car maintenance and cost-effectiveness and it is:
This is essentially a technological revolution because an electric motor provides some distinct advantages over an internal combustion engine. First, it has far fewer moving parts - only about 20 versus about 200 in a standard engine. It does not depend on liquids - not propulsion (fuel), no shielding (oil), and since it is not based on combustion, nor for cooling. It is so quiet that electric models are already selling artificial noise to prevent accidents. An electric motor does not need a transmission system ("chalk"), it accelerates and decelerates faster and requires at least treatments, and of course, it saves significantly on energy costs. However, the electric car revolution is not only about technological innovation. This is a tectonic shift in economic and even political terms. for example, China is using the electric vehicle as a means of gaining significant market share in the global automotive market, with the aim of ousting European and Japanese manufacturers from its control - somewhat like it has done in the field of consumer electronics. European countries encourage the development of electric vehicles to reduce pollutant emissions, while Israel encourages its development to reduce its dependence on oil, partly because of geopolitical reasons in the Middle East context.
Posted by Denis McMahon on Nov 8, 2019 12:56 pm
. . . In our imagination, living in a reality where the number of electric vehicles is counted in the centuries, in England every second vehicle is electric and every street corner has a charging stand. . . .
Posted by Benyamin Davodian on Nov 8, 2019 1:35 pm
In England compared to other countries there is more (probably not long ago was outside the UK). The law requires that an electric vehicle sold must receive a charging service and with no then is a problem that needs to be checked and addressed. Anyway I know England is a fast developing country.
Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 8, 2019 1:53 pm
Posted by mapj1 on Nov 8, 2019 3:35 pm
(call it 10 killowatt hours per litre for unleaded and easy nos, so a 3/4 fil up of say 30 litres is 300 kWhrs. In 180 seconds = 1/20 of an hour, so ~ 6 megawatts delivery rate per pump. At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy).
It is quite practical to fill up in 3 minutes, and in 2 more to have paid and be driving off.
Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVA per good charge, but even so unless you have a battery swap scheme, recharging mid-journey is a much slower business, so at any time, more cars will be parked up and buzzing merrily for an hour or so at a time - so filling up at home before you even get in it has some appeal.
typical family EV has a charge rate of 23mph (so to put enough in for a 23mile range takes an hour sitting on charge) or more like 100 miles in an hour if fast charge is available. Not exactly quick, if you are going a long way.
Posted by Denis McMahon on Nov 9, 2019 8:48 am
Thanks, Mike. A very relevant point! Hence it will become popular for motorists to charge their vehicles at home overnight.
The hiccup is one of rate of transfer of energy - the speed to refuel a petrol car means the service station borders on the burn rate equivalent to a modest power station . . .
Now an electric car needs less KVA, being more efficient, perhaps more like 30kVAEven if they have no more than a 13 A socket to plug into, that should provide 30 kWh overnight. A proper charging point will provide much more. (Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)
This is OK, at any rate, for those fortunate enough to have drives or garages to park their cars off-road. For someone living in a 3rd storey flat and having to park on-street, it will be less easy. Hence there will need to be plenty of fast charging points in shopping centre car parks and such like, where cars can charge while owners shop. This is already starting to happen where I live.
There still seems to be a lot of focus and worry about long range capabilities of electric cars. Many cars however are used mainly as short-journey runabouts and only occasionally take long motorway journeys. For those long journeys, advantage will need to be taken of charging points at service areas. This will require half an hour or so, but one should take breaks every 2 hours or so on a motorway journey anyway.
I seldom see more than about five cars filling up at a motorway service area, even when all three lanes are thick with traffic and the refreshment area are heaving. It seems most motorists prefer to tank up at a local supermarket before a long journey - can't think why! With electric cars it may not be possible to fully charge in advance for a long journey, and we will need to provide much more than five charge points at each service area, and again this is already happening.
At the motorway services, perhaps 5-10 cars may be filling at once when busy
Posted by mapj1 on Nov 9, 2019 11:10 am
(Think how that will affect off-peak demand and "cheap rate" tariffs - we could start a whole new topic on this.)
I think we could also start a whole topic on the updates needed to the way we run the LV (230/400) network. At the moment the substations are all sized on about 2kVA per house, because that is the average demand over time, smoothed over a large number of houses, so a 400A substation fuse feeds 25-35 houses, each of whom imagine they have a 100A supply, and perhaps half a dozen street lights. Adding charge points for the first 1% who would like one is easy, as the extra load is negligible. When that becomes something like 10% all charging at once, the substation is overloaded.
And there is a problem for all those cars parked nose to tail on both sides of terraced streets - I'm not sure we want extension leads out of every bedroom window, but at the cheap end of town it is what we will get if we do not make a formal provision.
The average UK car does around 10k miles a year That is 30 miles a day, again smoothed over many. That 30kVA mentioned above, gets perhaps you perhaps100 miles so recharge every 3 to 4 days, or more likely, a shorter charge taken more often, but a similar total.
It will sort of work, but no without a lot of careful load management, and maybe adding thermostatic fans on the substations. one of many ideas being trialled as we type..
Posted by CliveS on Nov 9, 2019 11:14 am
I agree that electric cars and much cleaner than hybrid vehicles for short trips in a city but are risky to take up the motorway if you trying to get somewhere within a reasonable time. Although there are just sufficient charging points for the present; the EVs still need at least half an hour each to charge up their battery. Can you imagine if you are third in line how frustrating that would be?
To solve that problem each motorway service station could become a mini power station with say a 5 MW generator of its own. But the genset would burn diesel, petrol or gas which is the same fuel the hybrid car is using already.
Posted by Maurice Dixon on Nov 9, 2019 11:19 am
Posted by Malcolm Davies on Nov 11, 2019 9:39 am
1) Since battery electric cars have a range of anything between 75 and 200 miles when carrying passengers and being driven normally and conventional cars offer anything from 300 milles to 600 miles then an electric car is 3 to 4 times more prone to break downs whilst hill climbing per 1000 miles of motoring, than a conventional car.
2) Two way charging points installed at home are now well developed and energy suppliers have been running Vehicle to Grid (V2G) trials with volunteers who have a Leaf, Zoe, i3 or similar for over 18 months in the UK - whereby the trialists get all their electric motoring for next to no cost due to the generous feed in tarrifs offered.
3) From 1). above, it seems reasonable to state that the current crop of battery electric cars, with kerb weights between 1200 Kg and 1800 Kg, carrying almost exhausted battery packs ranging from 100Kg to 300 Kg, loosely based on conventional ICE engined bodies, subframes and cycle parts, are not designed to be suitable for any journeys beyond their real world range.
Posted by mapj1 on Nov 11, 2019 4:42 pm
More a failure of the driver to understand the correct operation of the machine. There is no excuse for either, unless the fuel gauge is defective.
Posted by CliveS on Nov 11, 2019 5:04 pm
Take a look at the nat grid site," https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ " and you will see that all the wind/solar/hydro is already being used to base load the grid. The grid is already having to use CCGT combine cycle generation plant that is using gas or oil fired plant. If we want to generate more power to charge up electric vehicles then we must build more power station that will be burning gas or oil fuels at an efficiency of 60%. This is a huge capital cost but does not reduce our dependence on the gas and fuel-oil used overall just where it is produced.
Much better to make the motor industry produce more efficient hybrid engines with variable speed electric transmission rather than clutch and gearboxes and save the grid power for manufacturing and domestic use. Put solar panels on all roofs facing south could be a much more worthwhile investment rather than building more power stations
Posted by mapj1 on Nov 12, 2019 1:51 pm
in 2011 we had more power from coal than nuclear, and wind was almost a vanity novelty thing, at about 3% of the total
by 2014 coal still dominant, over nuclear and gas but wind looking more serious as 10% up to 14% of the total on a low demand day
by 2016 coal had slipped behind nuclear and gas, into 3rd place and wind is still going up .
by 2018 coal is clearly on the way out, gas in the lead, and wind and nuclear fighting for 2nd place
by early 2019 wind is in clear 2nd place generating just under a quarter of total, gas in 1st, coal even further down.
I appreciate that from day to day it flops about a lot, as the weather varies but it would be a brave person who tried to say where it will be even in 5 years time, let alone 10 or 20, though there is a trend to low carbon sources, more wind to come from offshore and I expect that to continue, and I don't know about you but I will probably still be driving the same car at least in 5 years time.
If the distribution network changed at the same speed as the generation is doing, it would be unrecognisable.