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Self employed Electrician set up query
Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
Question
Hi

I'v just started my new business (as some of you may know from my previous posts) and I have a couple more queries I was hoping I could get assistance with..

1. If some1 has already laid the cables and I'm just connecting up the sockets - Can this be classed as non notifiable? Would I be OK doing a minor works certificate for it?

2. I had plans of joining the NICEIC but was just wondering if there is a quicker route with another scheme to gain competent person status in order to not have to deal with Local authority fees - (I'm dreading the day im going to have to turn down a new circuit install because LA will be charging me £300+ to inspect)
16 Replies
wallywombat 11001209453
225 Posts
Mr_deep_:
1. If some1 has already laid the cables and I'm just connecting up the sockets - Can this be classed as non notifiable? Would I be OK doing a minor works certificate for it?

Regardless of the division of labour, if it's a new circuit or a modification in a bathroom etc, then in theory its notifiable; if not, then its not.

Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
wallywombat:
Mr_deep_:
1. If some1 has already laid the cables and I'm just connecting up the sockets - Can this be classed as non notifiable? Would I be OK doing a minor works certificate for it?

Regardless of the division of labour, if it's a new circuit or a modification in a bathroom etc, then in theory its notifiable; if not, then its not.

Cheers mate - that makes sense. Can only hope the works have already been registered - otherwise from what I understand, i would need to charge for labc inspection.. Which he won't want to pay for im sure.. 

New cables installed but not connected and operational are still part of the first fix. When you make the connections then it becomes part of the second fix and it becomes your responsibility to inspect, test, commission and complete the electrical Insatallation certification. It cannot be a minor works because its not a direct replacement for an existing circuit as it didn't exist in the first place.
If you feel that you have to pay the notification fee to the LBC as part of your initial assessment then I suggest you find another self assessment scheme.
Legh
Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
Legh Richardson:
New cables installed but not connected and operational are still part of the first fix. When you make the connections then it becomes part of the second fix and it becomes your responsibility to inspect, test, commission and complete the electrical Insatallation certification. It cannot be a minor works because its not a direct replacement for an existing circuit as it didn't exist in the first place.
If you feel that you have to pay the notification fee to the LBC as part of your initial assessment then I suggest you find another self assessment scheme.
Legh

Thanks Legh for your response - you did lose me at " if you feel you have to pay the fee...... find another self assessment scheme"

I've always worked for other companies and never dealt with building control, this will be my first job under my new company working legit in someone else's home (rather than for myself or a mate)

the installation, test n certification isn't a problem - its the notification side of things that is throwing me off.. 

I thought it was my responsibility as the electrician to notify the council of the works im doing on said dwelling, in order for them to inspect at 1st and then 2nd fix...
 



the installation, test n certification isn't a problem - its the notification side of things that is throwing me off.. 

I thought it was my responsibility as the electrician to notify the council of the works im doing on said dwelling, in order for them to inspect at 1st and then 2nd fix...
 

You don't say who you are working for i.e the home owner or you are sub contracting to a Builder carrying out work on a property and you are just doing the electrical work.

Assuming you are directly employed by the home owner, as the installer, it is your responsibility to notify the LABC (assuming the work is notifiable) and when completed certify that the installation complys with the regs. What happens when LABC receive the notification depends on your competency. If you have appropriate training and qualification for the work (say C&G 2382, 2392-10 etc) then the LABC may accept your Certification (EIC or MEIWC as appropriate) and provide the homeowner with a Building Control Certificate. If you're not qualified to do installation, inspection, testing etc then the LABC may require an independent Inspector to carry out EICR; that's when it gets expensive!

If you're working for a builder, just issue your EIC to them; they will be dealing with LABC, although they may come back to you for evidence of your competency to carry out the work. As before, if LABC aren't satisfied that the installer is competent to issue the EIC, they may request independant EICR and Bob the Builder may not be very happy with getting hit with a bill from building control. If Bob is a close friend or a large angry type, you may want to clarify with LABC what you need to do to prove competancy first, then Bob won't get any shocks later (or you won't f Bob tries to hit you with something large and heavy when he gets the EICR bill!)

Once your a part of a Registered Person scheme (such as NICEIC Domestic Installer) things will be much more straight forward. You will already have proved your competency, as the Scheme will check out your training, qual's, experience, insurance etc. When you carry out work, you just send details to your Scheme (and usually a small fee for admin). Worth noting that you don't have to be a member of a Registered Persons Scheme; makes life a bit easier on the paperwork side and you get to stick another fancy name on your van which may make you more marketable. Downside is fees to join the scheme, hoops to jump through to join and you will get a yearly visit from the scheme to check you're doing things correctly (but then of course you are!)

Hope this helps and yes, the whole process is way more complicated then it really should be. 

Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
Andy Mounsey:


the installation, test n certification isn't a problem - its the notification side of things that is throwing me off.. 

I thought it was my responsibility as the electrician to notify the council of the works im doing on said dwelling, in order for them to inspect at 1st and then 2nd fix...
 

You don't say who you are working for i.e the home owner or you are sub contracting to a Builder carrying out work on a property and you are just doing the electrical work.

Assuming you are directly employed by the home owner, as the installer, it is your responsibility to notify the LABC (assuming the work is notifiable) and when completed certify that the installation complys with the regs. What happens when LABC receive the notification depends on your competency. If you have appropriate training and qualification for the work (say C&G 2382, 2392-10 etc) then the LABC may accept your Certification (EIC or MEIWC as appropriate) and provide the homeowner with a Building Control Certificate. If you're not qualified to do installation, inspection, testing etc then the LABC may require an independent Inspector to carry out EICR; that's when it gets expensive!

If you're working for a builder, just issue your EIC to them; they will be dealing with LABC, although they may come back to you for evidence of your competency to carry out the work. As before, if LABC aren't satisfied that the installer is competent to issue the EIC, they may request independant EICR and Bob the Builder may not be very happy with getting hit with a bill from building control. If Bob is a close friend or a large angry type, you may want to clarify with LABC what you need to do to prove competancy first, then Bob won't get any shocks later (or you won't f Bob tries to hit you with something large and heavy when he gets the EICR bill!)

Once your a part of a Registered Person scheme (such as NICEIC Domestic Installer) things will be much more straight forward. You will already have proved your competency, as the Scheme will check out your training, qual's, experience, insurance etc. When you carry out work, you just send details to your Scheme (and usually a small fee for admin). Worth noting that you don't have to be a member of a Registered Persons Scheme; makes life a bit easier on the paperwork side and you get to stick another fancy name on your van which may make you more marketable. Downside is fees to join the scheme, hoops to jump through to join and you will get a yearly visit from the scheme to check you're doing things correctly (but then of course you are!)

Hope this helps and yes, the whole process is way more complicated then it really should be. 

Awesome! Thanks Andy, this is a big help. 

I am working directly for the home owner but he has a builder on site so will check to see if he is in communication with the LABC and if whether i can leave the EIC with him -  I will also double check with the LACB if they are happy with my qualifications and experience to sign off the certificates without additional testing on their part, in order to reduce the chances of getting hit with a bill / boulder lol

Chris Pearson 11001208764
1452 Posts
I would strongly advise you to check with Building Control exactly what process should be followed and what the fees may be. Not much point in asking here because it varies from authority to authority.
Alan Capon 20740443
361 Posts
Mr_deep_:
. . . If some1 has already laid the cables and I'm just connecting up the sockets - Can this be classed as non notifiable? Would I be OK doing a minor works certificate for it? . . . 

This is actually needs more thought. If the cables have already been put in the walls, what you are talking about is adopting someone else’s part installation as your own. Do you know the routes, do you know they have been installed underaged? Will you risk your reputation / insurance on it? This all needs thinking about. 

Regards,

Alan. 

Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
Alan Capon:
Mr_deep_:
. . . If some1 has already laid the cables and I'm just connecting up the sockets - Can this be classed as non notifiable? Would I be OK doing a minor works certificate for it? . . . 

This is actually needs more thought. If the cables have already been put in the walls, what you are talking about is adopting someone else’s part installation as your own. Do you know the routes, do you know they have been installed underaged? Will you risk your reputation / insurance on it? This all needs thinking about. 

Regards,

Alan. 

This is a very good point Alan thank you - im meeting the client on Wednesday so will definately find out some more information then - routes and installation methods etc.. 

mapj1 80733779
2070 Posts
I assume you and your new business are not registered with NAPIT, NICIEC Stroma or any other body that allows you to self notify and bypass the LABC step,  or you would not  be asking the question.
If you are, then you notify it through your scheme, with the caveat below
I also assume you are happy that the cables in place by AN Other are all to your satisfaction - I cannot see them, and it may be all hunky dory, but equally any monkey can unroll cable but some monkeys are better than others  at knowing about permitted routes, grouping factors ratings etc.  There are multipart certificates if you want some one else to sign for installation and design.
As regards building control many local authorities will accept a certificate from anyone who can convince them they are competent, and then reduce the fee considerably compared to if they have to send some one in to inspect - if at all possible you need to get yourself into that category. Very few (probably none) local authorities have an electrician on their permanent  inspection team, so the fees end up quite high as they bring in an external contractor for this part. To find out you need to talk to the head of building control in that area, as it varies a lot from patch to patch.

 
AJJewsbury 77361768
1611 Posts
The other possible option is to find a "Third Party Verifier" - i.e. someone who's a member of one of the schemes and that has the extra accreditation to check & certify other people's work. I gather there aren't too many about, so there's no guarantee there'll be one in your area, but you might be lucky...
   - Andy.
Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
mapj1:
I assume you and your new business are not registered with NAPIT, NICIEC Stroma or any other body that allows you to self notify and bypass the LABC step,  or you would not  be asking the question.

 

Thanks mate - thats correct looking to join ASAP - just a bit of a catch 22 with them though so just diving in.

2nd part of the query was actually asking which was the quickest scheme to join in for me to self certify.

will be calling Napit, niceic etc in the morning. 

Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
AJJewsbury:
The other possible option is to find a "Third Party Verifier" - i.e. someone who's a member of one of the schemes and that has the extra accreditation to check & certify other people's work. I gather there aren't too many about, so there's no guarantee there'll be one in your area, but you might be lucky...
   - Andy.

Thats a good idea mate - will look into this as a contingency too. Many thanks 

AJJewsbury:
The other possible option is to find a "Third Party Verifier" - i.e. someone who's a member of one of the schemes and that has the extra accreditation to check & certify other people's work. I gather there aren't too many about, so there's no guarantee there'll be one in your area, but you might be lucky...
   - Andy.

Yes, but the third party verifier is expected to see and sign off 1st, 2nd fix and check or guarantee that the testing and commisioning is correct.
Well, that was the expectation of NAPIT when I was one of the 3rd party verifiers.
Legh

Mr_deep_ 11001215443
24 Posts
 

Regardless of the division of labour, if it's a new circuit or a modification in a bathroom etc, then in theory its notifiable; if not, then its not.

Am correct in my understanding thats is modifications in a bathroom within the zones? I have extracts to replace that are outside of the zones which I wasnt planning on Notifying...

AJJewsbury 77361768
1611 Posts
Mr_deep_:
 

Regardless of the division of labour, if it's a new circuit or a modification in a bathroom etc, then in theory its notifiable; if not, then its not.

Am correct in my understanding thats is modifications in a bathroom within the zones? I have extracts to replace that are outside of the zones which I wasnt planning on Notifying...

Yes, only within zones in a bathroom (or anywhere in a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater) - building regs definitions of special locations aren't the same as BS 7671's.

If it's a simple replacement it wouldn't be notifiable anyway, even if within zones.

   - Andy.

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