Log in to the online community

Want to post a reply? You'll need to log in

More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

48 Replies

  • New Question

More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Zoomup on Jan 17, 2020 7:45 am

Well I never. Haven't we said so for years? Ministers are catching on at last, bless 'em.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/cars/article-7894719/UK-electricity-network-needs-upgraded-cope-rising-EV-demand.html

Z.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by John Peckham on Jan 18, 2020 2:07 pm

Andy B


I have to ask before someone else does but did your brand new filling station and the head of the valley have vehicle charging points in addition to the Greggs, Costa and mini supermarket?

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 18, 2020 10:52 pm

I am not sure if there are any at the garage, EV bays were on the plan, as was a cycle rack which is an obvious addition to a petrol filling station. I cannot say I noticed either. It does have a Edmundsons on the other side of the road.

Driving down to Wales I passed close by to four branches of Screwfix and they have better signage than any EV charging points, I did not notice any EV charging poits advertised or signed at all.

EV drivers must be members of a exclusive society with insider knowledge regarding the location of charging points.

The Asda car park in Worcester has two charging points listed on the internet 1 x  3kW 13A  3-Square pin and 1 x  7kW 32A  Type 2 Menneke, there is a £70 penalty charge if your vehicle is in the car park for more than three hours, so how much use can those charging points be  to an EV driver?

Andy Betteridge.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 18, 2020 11:11 pm

Looking at Zap map it seems you have to leave the main road and go to a supermarket or pub to find an EV charging point.

Andy B.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by davezawadi on Jan 19, 2020 11:02 am

Why not air the problems properly, for example Bristol, where I live.

The City was green capital of Europe in 2015, and to get this has been made nonsense of transport. All of the traffic lights are phased to hold up traffic, and bus and cycle lanes make almost all roads to the City centre one lane only. Mostly both of these "green lanes" are unused, cyclists preferring to ride (illegally) on the pavements and even in the lane without lights at night wearing black Lycra. The council spent £240 million building a "Metrobus" system to speed journeys, which unfortunately is so badly planned that most of it runs on roads without bus lanes and buses being an hour late is normal, and usually full up as well. The standard buses are often cancelled and mostly 15-20 years old so not very good from a pollution point of view, and the council has announced a low emissions zone which covers all the vehicles on the M32 going to the city centre, with no way of avoiding huge charges! Bus fares are considerably higher than London, and don't mention the car parking charges anywhere near the City centre! Of course there is little provision for vehicle charging, perhaps 2 or 3 each in the large car parks. The LEZ is to reduce pollution from all the stationary vehicles held up by the traffic lights and resulting jams.

Talk about zero planning or intelligence by the council, perhaps they own the traffic light manufacturers as they keep adding more, in some places one set every 100 metres, all not phased up. West into London is fantastic by comparison, it shows that the systems are there, just not used, presumably deliberately. There is relatively poor footfall in the city centre shops, and the Council wonders why!!!
Regards David CEng etc.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 12:13 pm

The reason I mentioned the Heads of the Valleys road is that whilst cities like Bristol are making life difficult for people to visit and work there the The European Union  are upgrading a 15km length of the A465 Heads of the Valleys Road which provides a principal road link between south west Wales and the UK Midlands and forms part of the Trans-European Road Network.

This road should have bee built fifty years ago, but it is a huge project that it is claimed may cost a hundred million pouds a mile that may not have been possible back then.

Without good road access the EU can see this area of the UK will not be able to thrive and flourish.

There are many other examples of huge road building projects in England aimed at allowing the whole country thrive and flourish, the question is will cities like Bristol and Birmingham do so in the long term is access is restricted, also what vehicles will be using these roads?

Andy Betteridge

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 12:54 pm

I looked for a short video of the Heads of the Valleys road upgraded. 

Road building in Wales is nothing like in the Midlands or East of England, the height the ground is being raised in places is phenomenal. Here is the official visualisation   this hand held camera video gives a real idea of what is going on.

So at a time where people have been allowed to stand in roads stopping vehicles stopping people and goods from moving around the towns and cities there is actually in reality some huge infrastructure projects improving the road network to move goods and people across the whole of European, but the EV car chargers are away from the road the a supermarket car park.

So will battery technology improve enough for long distance journeys in an EV or will people use an alternative vehicle or other means of transport to the one they use on a daily basis?

Andy Betteridge

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Harry Macdonald on Jan 19, 2020 5:56 pm

"Is hydrogen really difficult to make, store and use?" Anyone got an up to date copy of the BS for the use of electricity in potentially flammable atmospheres?
My recollection was that if hydrogen might be present don't use ectricity was the recommendation in summary.
 

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Kelly Marie on Jan 19, 2020 6:12 pm

I just about remember the conversation from town to natural gas we had a gas fire in the dinning room and a bloke from the gas board came and adjusted it and I think to the meter as well but can't swear to that. In an earlier post it was said coal gas had carbon monoxide in it is that right? Is it flammable and how did it get there since I thought it was a result of incorrect burning but the gas is t burnt yet when it's in the pipe  so how did the carbon monoxide get there

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by GeoffBlackwell on Jan 19, 2020 7:02 pm

Well I guess we will have to scrap all those battery rooms stacked with lead acid batteries for emergency services on ships and in some buildings, etc.  That a shame as we have used them for decades without that many problems.  I suppose I will have to dump the ones on my yacht too.

A spark near a gassing lead acid battery tends to blow the filler caps up in the air with a big bang but not much else,  at least that is what happened when I played the idiot and moved a connection on a gassing battery bank.

However, to balance the negative comments  against a hydrogen solution try these:

New Fuel
https://www.israel21c.org/israeli-breakthrough-could-turn-hydrogen-into-the-fuel-of-future/

The Plane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WukX4O-hraY

The Train
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48698532

Hydrogen may or may not be part of the solution.  However, I fail to see how the current electric cars with all of the the problems of providing suitable infrastructure will be a long term answer.

Regards

Geoff Blackwell

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by davezawadi on Jan 19, 2020 8:22 pm

Hi Kelly

Yes coal gas was a mixture of several gases. The first was from distilled solid coal in externally heated closed retorts, largely hydrocarbons of various types. The leftover coke was then subjected to two processes, one exothermic (giving out heat) which further heated the hot coke by blowing air through it to partially burn it producing carbon monoxide, and then blowing steam through the hot coke, cooling it in the process, making "water gas" which was a mixture of CO2 and hydrogen. The CO2 was removed with lime, leaving a good inflammable mixture although very poisonous. A nasty smell was added to warn you of escapes.  It was distributed at very low pressure, so leakage of the hydrogen was not too serious, but there were sometimes explosions, probably because hydrogen in air ignites very easily from any size of spark or even hot surfaces.
Try here water gas
Regards
David
Regards David CEng etc.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Chris Pearson on Jan 19, 2020 8:46 pm

EU funded roads - whilst I have travelled on some of them, I have never found one in England, not that that matters any more.

Bristol ... last time I went there I had the cunning plan of parking at the Parkway station, but soon found that it is not as conveniently situated as Southampton Parkway. So we paid and parked, went down to the station and found that all trains were cancelled! I once took a wrong turning in Bristol and had to go about a mile and a half before I could turn round. Not at all vehicle friendly and it is difficult to see how an EV would do any better.

Supermarket charging ... average time spent in store = 45 min. So a couple of kWh from a standard charger = 10 miles. It doesn't sound like much, but it may pay for the round trip and will certainly attract customers - rather like cut-price petrol.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by John Peckham on Jan 19, 2020 8:59 pm

It would appear that Andy B has discovered that Greggs, Costa and a min supermarket take precedence on  EV charging.

As for EU money we have been giving the EU shed loads of money a chunk is creamed off and some of it comes back as EU grants but are told how and what we are allowed to spend it on. It's our own money not the EUs but not for much longer we will be part of the EUs Ponzi scheme. 

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Harry Macdonald on Jan 19, 2020 9:35 pm

The key difference between the old gas supply with a mix of H2 and CO and now is that there were also trace amounts of various tars which sealed any holed in the pipework.
Now with gas coming to the UK as LPG carried by giant carriers there isn't any tar so small holes don't get sealed.
 

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 9:54 pm

John Peckham:
It would appear that Andy B has discovered that Greggs, Costa and a min supermarket take precedence on  EV charging.

As for EU money we have been giving the EU shed loads of money a chunk is creamed off and some of it comes back as EU grants but are told how and what we are allowed to spend it on. It's our own money not the EUs but not for much longer we will be part of the EUs Ponzi scheme. 

Up until now the UK government departments, for example the Ministry of Agriculture,Fisheries and Food have implemented EU policies and handed out the EU grants, now they have to actually write policies and implement their own schemes. It will be interesting to see how the government actually handle it all, given the regulations drawn up for electrical safety in privately rented homes they don’t seem too good at such things. 🤨

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by AJJewsbury on Jan 19, 2020 10:42 pm

In an earlier post it was said coal gas had carbon monoxide in it is that right? Is it flammable and how did it get there since I thought it was a result of incorrect burning but the gas is t burnt yet when it's in the pipe  so how did the carbon monoxide get there

As Dave said, town gas is the result of partly burning coal - in the days when the gas works really was a works, not just the site of a big gasometer.

  - Andy.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 11:01 pm

Basically the gas company used coal fired ovens to cook coal to release gas and the cooked coal was sold as coke, which could still be burnt as a fuel, but produced less heat than coal as the gas had been removed from it.

Andy B.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by mapj1 on Jan 19, 2020 11:14 pm

Indeed - heating the coal up with not enough air to fully burn, and adding water vapour as described above by DZ, is a key part of the old gasworks process - giving you two flammable by products, the solid but porous coke, and the gas, as well as reasonable quantities of a heavy coal tar and creosote, good  for water proofing sleepers and wood preservation. (spills of these latter, or indeed just dumping of it into pits make reclaiming old gasworks for development into a bit of an environmental nightmare. )

youtube video of a manual gas works - larger ones were more mechanised.

Once in fresh air the carbon monoxide can be persuaded to pick up another oxygen and burn but it is the hydrogen from the cracking of the water that makes town gas interesting for the current discussion, because it is often described as hard to contain, with leaks spontaneously lighting and exploding at the drop of the hat.  This has been seen in industrial settings with H2 at high pressure (hundreds of atmospheres, where about the only thing that reliably keeps it in it seems is fully welded stainless steel pipework).
But hydrogen leaks were not a serious problem in the old coal gas era with distribution pressure of a few inches of water gauge. As adding hydrogen to the current natural gas network is another thing that may soon be required, it seems  sensible to debunk some of the worst fears.
As an aside the 'Agatha Christie style ' murder of the head in the oven and not lighting the gas works with town gas, because of the unburnt CO.
With north sea gas breathing in a few lungfulls will give you a headache and a fit of coughing is more likely - with CO that is fatal.
regards Mike

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Chris Pearson on Jan 19, 2020 11:25 pm

Coke - the original smokeless fuel.

Town gas - yes delivered at a very low pressure. When natural gas (methane) came in, pressure regulators were fitted at the origin and burners had to be changed. Instead of "gasometers" gas is now stored in its pipes by virtue of changing the pressures therein.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 11:27 pm

And as a gentleman in South Wales told me, the Porth Council Electricity Power Station where his dad worked was part of the gas and tar works.
Electricity, gas, coke and tar all products of coal mined locally in the Rhonda Valley and produced within the same works.

As a personal note I can say my mother was a wages clerk at the Gas Works in Redditch many years ago, where she worked with my godmother.

Andy B.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 19, 2020 11:31 pm

When the conversions to natural gas from the North Sea were being carried out the gas fitters used to tell the old ladies they would not need to put any salt in the pan of spuds as the gas was salty.

Andy B.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Kelly Marie on Jan 21, 2020 7:58 pm

Thanks David I never knew town gas was such a mix of gasses amazing really. I remember my dad buying creosote to coat fences around various ethnic property's I think he used to go to Newbury gasworks to buy it. 

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Sparkingchip on Jan 21, 2020 8:49 pm

During the war vans and cars were run using town gas, as in "Dads Army", also charcoal was used to produce gas for the same purpose.

Re: More Car Charging Juice Needed Humphrey? Yes Minister.

Posted by Kelly Marie on Jan 21, 2020 9:10 pm

I remember in dads army they had Jones van converted to gas and it had a big gas bag on top. And then they burst it by accident with fixed bayonets Oooops. I've just realised that spellcheck put the word ethnics instead of area property's sorry I didn't notice before 

Share:

Log in

Want to post a reply? You'll need to log in