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Google fire man who claims that women are underrepresented because they are biologically different, not because of bias....

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Ok, there's a bit more to it than is in the headlines, but you can see the full "anti-diversity manifesto" here. It's quite a read!


My personal reading is this was written by someone well-meaning but extremely mis-led and confused about why tech companies need to address diversity. It's also full of conjecture and is unnecessarily divisive (constant references to "left" and "right").


Were they right to fire him? Or was he perfectly entitled to publish his thoughts, regardless of whether or not we (or his employer) like it? Any other thoughts on the manifesto? Was there a fair point buried somewhere in the ranting?




  • It appears this software engineer wasn't as data driven as his peers:
    @forbes: 70% Of Iran's Science And Engineering Students Are Women via https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/#bad45444de14 . Seems #9percentisnotenough!
  • I think they were right to fire him ultimately. I read an interesting article from Business Insider UK that explains he doesn't have much of leg to stand on from a legal point of view. The fact that he published this memo on an internal Google mailing list and not using a personal blog, further strengthens Google's position.
  • Women are underrepresented simply because of the natural processes which occur within a capitalist society. It values them less than men – ie the owners of industry value them less than men. The west has opted for this cultural lifestyle because the industrialists who started the capitalist system at the beginning of the industrial revolution were pretty sure it would make them rich - and it did. But those below their intellectual and predatory levels ie the rest of us – mistakenly thought that we could have a slice of the cake on the same terms: how mistaken we were! And how mistaken we continue to be.

    Women have looked at men’s income and said it’s not fair that they are paid less. And amazingly, some men have jumped on the band wagon without engaging brain. The other men allow macho stereotypical judgments to cloud the issue which whips the ladies into a frenzy of indignation; and leaves the industrialist laughing all the way to the bank thinking “divide and conquer.”

    So first, the ladies have to recognise the source of their “worth”.  If a man had a problem with his stomach and took more days off than other men, and he had family commitments that kept functioning less than other men, he would automatically be valued less than other men. This value is not his compatriots’ but his employer’s. The” value” or “worth” is related to how much work the employer (industrialist) can extract from him. And so it is with women. They cannot and never will provide the same service as men (other things being equal). The ladies are locked into giving birth and that is a debility as far as the industrial is concerned. The ladies will take time off because of their periods and they will take the larger share of the family care. It’s how society is, so please don’t slag me off – this is (I believe) the view of the industrialist to whom well all bow, or go hungry. It may be unfair. But fairness is irrelevant; the industrialist set up his business to get rich, not to be fair. I am presenting the extreme end of capitalism but it’s realistic. I don’t like the outcome any more than the rest of you, but why shirk the truth.

    And in truth, any female industrialist will like as not treat her women-folk exactly the same as the men do. Any ladies migrating to the level of industrialist will change their tune very quickly – or go out of business.

    So IMHO the ladies are wasting their time trying to make the industrialist be fair, or reasonable. He / she will not.  You have to change our society; you will have to change capitalism – but to what, I don’t know.

    Indeed, if you look at how someone with the debilities with which women have to struggle would make themselves as valuable to their employer as men, they would have to mitigate all those debilities; they would have to work harder, smarter and faster; and is this not exactly what women report they have to do? Yes it is, and it fits the model of our society exactly. 

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Thanks Stephen. That's an interesting, albeit cynical commentary on the state of society. Attempting to extrapolate some relevance to the point about the author of the manifesto, I'm not sure whether you're agreeing on the basis that it's wrong to attempt to address the issue, or disagreeing because you think there's no point.


    On a side note, my perception of the work place is quite different to yours. Speaking as a recruiting manager and as someone who leads a team of one man and 10 women, I don't value anybody any more or any less based on their gender and how likely they are to be off sick or on maternity leave. There is huge value in retaining good staff, regardless of their gender, and a few extra sick days (if there's even any truth in that) and/or X amount of time on maternity leave is a small price to pay for loyal and engaged staff. I think the extreme end of capitalism that you describe misses the bigger picture.


    It's also a bit ridiculous to suggest that men are jumping on the band wagon without engaging their brains. It is illegal to pay women either more or less than a man for equal work, but the point is normally around whether women (or any other disadvantaged group) have opportunity to get that equal work to begin with.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    David,

    You don't work for a publicly traded company that is required to maximize shareholder value.

    Neither do I at this point, and this shapes the culture of the workplace.

    Edwin

    Sent from my Mobile Device ---@.
  • So women are grumbing about being valued less than men and you feel "I" am being cyical. Well that is any interesting take on the behaviour I see from the ladies. I understand where they are coming from I just don't think that anyone is being realistic. As as for me being cylical - true. Does that negate my analyisis? I don't think so. Do you want to understand what is going on and why. You appear not to.


    As for you as an HR rep, your valuation is irrelevant is this argument. The only  valuation (or worth) is that expressed by the business owner. The funny thing about this type of discussion is that as soon as someone comes along with a realisitic view which explains the reality of the situation, people (you) and I expect others will - start jumping up and down. And once that person's view has been pushed onto the rubbish tip, the group all return to the same old round of moaining without any attempt to explain the realitity of the situation. So to some extent you all get what you deserve. There is none so blind... need I continue?


    And then the very people who show they can't apply logic and observation to establish the reality of the situation grumble becuase they are seen as engineers to be less valuable that male engineers. 


    It's interesting to note that this type of discussion has been going on particularly strongly since women discovered they can be more than just "pretty little things" after supporting the Second World War effort so effectively. Or more to the chagrin of the UK men-folk who made the simultaneous discovery and couldn’t tell the girls to get back to the kitchen where they belong...

    And in all that time I have watch so-called engineers completely fail to apply the same solution-seeking techniques and abilities they use on a daily basis to answer this question. This is for the ladies as well.... If they want to be on this ride, they will have to muck-in with the men – unless they are too delicate and feel they are a special case…

    I note that as soon as this type of question appears, the men become all macho and judgemental and the women hysterical - talk about stereotypes!

    I found great interest in the film Disclosure (1994) when Michael Douglas was trying to solve the problem of who was behind his troubles (funnily enough it was a woman – but that’s another story J ) – the point was the need to “solve the problem”. He kept getting an email from someone signing himself “A friend”, which is an incidental but for me added to the mystery: the text of these message was “Solve the problem”.

    He did eventually but it left that phrase in my head. My work has always been solving problems and as time went by I often realised that I was not solving the problem because I was not identifying it – I was not pulling it to pieces and identifying every last element each of which needed a solution; and indeed people… society, don’t “solve the problem” (IMHO) because they don’t identify it. The same goes with this one.

    (IMHO) you are all responding to feelings and dogmatisms which of course results in a never-ending argument which is as close to a solution today as it was seventy years ago.

    So I throw out that challenge: What is the problem that needs solving? Then you will have your answer.

  • No I don't - for much a much more fickle group - the public! -)

     
    But don't you see all the argi-bargi of endless meaningless discussion and think "come on you guys, solve the blxxdy problem and move on"? I mean to say, the one about women in engineering is just about enough to make you weep. It shows no understanding of reality and that they would behave exactly the same as those holding the purse strings if they held them. That's human nature.

     
    It's interesting that Ms D'Lima says quote "I'm not sure whether you're agreeing ..., or disagreeing ...". I'm must have achieved my aim. I am just analysing the problem. As a person with and engineering background I don't anlyse a problem and agree or disagree, I just record the results of the analyis without, I hope, bias otherwise it may be a poor analysis. My agreemement or otherwise is irrelevant. Clearly no one has done that so far otherwise we would be way down the road of discussing how to change society (in my estimation). My aim and hope is that once the problem has been analysed then those far more able than I can find a solution. Although I may have a few words to throw into the discussion... if I can find the time :-)

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Edwin Morton:

    David,


    You don't work for a publicly traded company that is required to maximize shareholder value.


    Neither do I at this point, and this shapes the culture of the workplace.


    Edwin


    Sent from my Mobile Device ---@.






    Hi Edwin,


    You're right, I currently work in a not-for-profit part of my organisation, hence adding that my comment was based on my perception. Although there are no shareholders to please, there are still an enormous number of stakeholders to consider, and they are still looking for maximum value. The commercial success of my organisation still has a very real effect on my team. There's no doubt that the culture is different to banking, for example, but the common thread of value (however it might be measured) remains. I have also worked at other companies and for myself, and my attitude hasn't changed.

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    David,

    The KPIs for the IET are, obviously, different than for private industry. It is also true that each commercial business can adopt multiple KPIs in addition to return on investment. I was simply pointing out that different organizations have different cultures and typically employees are encouraged to align with those cultures.

    I work for a Government agency and the KPIs are yet again different. There is a strong commitment to equality at any cost. Whether one agrees with that, is, of course, up to individual taxpayers, some of whom, like me, are also employed by the Government.

    Edwin


    Sent from my Mobile Device ---@.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    It would also be valuable to know the ratio of male to female engineers in the workforce in Iran.  For that matter, it would be valuable to understand the social and cultural drivers that shape the choices that people and families in different cultures make when a young person makes the choice to become an engineer.  Not sure if that wealth of data is available.


    Edwin