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Man up and take your paternity leave

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Take a look at this interesting blog  By Abbie Hutty, Senior Spacecraft Structures Engineer, Airbus Defence and Space Ltd and IET Young Woman Engineer of the Year 2013

''Ever wished you could, through some noble act of gallantry, save damsels in distress? Here’s how, 21st Century style'' - Abbie Hutty




  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    I think the blog is well-intentioned, but it's also a bit unfair on some men by making all sorts of assumptions and negative sweeping statements.


    What we don't know is how many men have wanted to take parental leave, but haven't done so because their wife / partner wanted or insisted on taking the parental leave. Let's not forget that there will be many women who are perfectly happy - we need to stop thinking that they are not.


    I think the blog also assumes that couples haven't thought it through or even discussed the idea of shared parental leave. It is perfectly reasonable that some couples would like to, but financially can't. I think it really rubs salt in the wound for men who want to do it, but literally can't because they are the higher earners and essentially become trapped by that (I have commented before on why unequal pay harms both men and women).


    I also object to the term "man up" in the context of a blog about equality. It's actually quite a sexist term and has been used in destructive ways towards men. This article better explains. Personally, I'd hate to be chastised and bullied ("man up" can really tread a fine line) by society if I was desperate to share parental leave but couldn't find a way to make it work.


    What would be appropriate is to suggest that men, who are in a position to share parental leave but believe it's the "women's place" or that they can't do it, need to grow up.


  • Based on what I've seen in various offices I think it's more often the employer who is the barrier, not the man.  I have seen men take calls in the office that their child has been injured at school and a parent is needed to go to the hospital, ask their manager to be allowed to leave and be told "Can't your wife do that?"  Similarly, as a union rep, I've had to support men requesting flexible working so they can pick their kid up from school and be told "Can't your wife do that?" or similar.  I have yet to see a woman refused flexible working for childcare or to leave the office due to a child beign ill or injured (they get refused for other things but not to care for children or other dependants).


    To a certain extent it's chicken and egg, until more men take an active role in childcare it's going to be assumed to be the woman's demesne, but until more men are permitted to take an active role in childcare by taking parental leave, working flexibily or working from home we're not going to have the precedents to argue with managers (both male and female in my experience) who can't see why their male employee has to leave the office when his wife (or sister, girlfriend, mother, adult daughter or neighbour) could do so.  A big step forward woudl be to change the legislation on flexible working, parental leave etc. to make managerial consent expected and managers give an actual reason, in writing, for refusal that has to be confirmed by HR.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    David Houssein:

    I think the blog is well-intentioned, but it's also a bit unfair on some men by making all sorts of assumptions and negative sweeping statements.


    What we don't know is how many men have wanted to take parental leave, but haven't done so because their wife / partner wanted or insisted on taking the parental leave. Let's not forget that there will be many women who are perfectly happy - we need to stop thinking that they are not.


    I think the blog also assumes that couples haven't thought it through or even discussed the idea of shared parental leave. It is perfectly reasonable that some couples would like to, but financially can't. I think it really rubs salt in the wound for men who want to do it, but literally can't because they are the higher earners and essentially become trapped by that (I have commented before on why unequal pay harms both men and women).


    I also object to the term "man up" in the context of a blog about equality. It's actually quite a sexist term and has been used in destructive ways towards men. This article better explains. Personally, I'd hate to be chastised and bullied ("man up" can really tread a fine line) by society if I was desperate to share parental leave but couldn't find a way to make it work.


    What would be appropriate is to suggest that men, who are in a position to share parental leave but believe it's the "women's place" or that they can't do it, need to grow up.


     




    Hi David,


    I see your point but I think, in this instance, 'man-up' is not used in a sexist way - the author makes the point of using a sexist expression with a new non-sexist meaning. Man up usually meant 'be macho', 'don't cry', 'be the provider' etc. In this case, it means 'take your responsibilities as a man and as a father'. The responsibilities of a father is to be there for his child in more than one way (financially). Of course there are mothers who prefer to take the whole maternal leave instead of sharing it. Should the father be ok with that? There should be a discussion where it should be pointed that the second parent is also very important in the life of the child and vice versa. We have to de-demonise the words for them to stop being used in a sexist context.


    Furthermore, as Stephen said, it should be the responsibility of the workplace and managers to protect the rights of men to take paternal leave and have flexible hours. I am fortunate enough to work at a university where rights of both men and women, fathers and mothers, are protected. I know for a fact that special arrangements are made for single fathers to be able to leave when they need etc.


  • David Houssein:

    I think the blog is well-intentioned, but it's also a bit unfair on some men by making all sorts of assumptions and negative sweeping statements.


    What we don't know is how many men have wanted to take parental leave, but haven't done so because their wife / partner wanted or insisted on taking the parental leave. Let's not forget that there will be many women who are perfectly happy - we need to stop thinking that they are not.


    I think the blog also assumes that couples haven't thought it through or even discussed the idea of shared parental leave. It is perfectly reasonable that some couples would like to, but financially can't. I think it really rubs salt in the wound for men who want to do it, but literally can't because they are the higher earners and essentially become trapped by that (I have commented before on why unequal pay harms both men and women).


    I also object to the term "man up" in the context of a blog about equality. It's actually quite a sexist term and has been used in destructive ways towards men. This article better explains. Personally, I'd hate to be chastised and bullied ("man up" can really tread a fine line) by society if I was desperate to share parental leave but couldn't find a way to make it work.


    What would be appropriate is to suggest that men, who are in a position to share parental leave but believe it's the "women's place" or that they can't do it, need to grow up.


     




    Did you get a chance to read a summary of the survey included in Abbie's article ? - My Family Care + Women's Business Council : Shared Parental Leave - One Year On - Where Are We Now? www.myfamilycare.co.uk/.../shared-parental-leave-where-are-we-now.html


    There is also a link to a study in Abbie's article - the study is dated December 2016, so it is relatively current. Labour market outlooks: Views from employer: Focus on working parents

    www.cipd.co.uk/.../labour-market-outlook-focus-on-working-parents_tcm18-17048.pdf

    www.myfamilycare.co.uk/.../shared-parental-leave-where-are-we-now.html

  • Great blog - thanks for posting. It reminded me of a blog I read recently describing what it was like to be an engineer in the 1980s and that maternity leave had effectively been the end to the blogger's mother's engineering career for the same reasons Abbie outlines in her post.


    Particularly interesting to see the link to the TUC site showing that parenthood appears to give men a financial bonus for fatherhood (Fathers working full-time get paid a fifth more than men with similar jobs who don’t have children, according to a new report published by the TUC today (Monday). The report shows that dads who work full-time experience, on average, a 21% ‘wage bonus’ and that working fathers with two kids earn more (9%) than those with just one. The findings are in stark contrast to the experience of working mothers, says the report. Women who become mothers before 33 typically suffer a 15% pay penalty.: https://www.tuc.org.uk/equality-issues/gender-equality/equal-pay/pregnancy-discrimination/fathers-working-full-time-earn-21)


    @David - I agree. Many women would want to take all available parental leave themselves, and for those on the fence, quite often it will be financial reasons that mean that it is not really in the family's interest to lose the man's monthly income for the statutory pay.


    @Stephen - I agree. Companies need to implement flexible working practices for all employees (flexible hours, working from home, part time hours etc.) in order to benefit everyone. Additionally, I think it is shocking to think that any manager's first reaction to the news that a child has been injured would be "can't your wife deal with that?" rather than "You must be incredibly concerned for your child at having received a call like that. Go to the school/hospital immediately to be with your injured child"!
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Antonia Tzemanaki‍ - I just re-read the article to see whether I'd mis-judged the tone, but it still felt quite critical of men in general. I've never known "man up" to be used in the context you describe - I'm sure there are lots of men who've been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty comments and would struggle to agree with you. But I guess we just have different interpretations and will have to agree to disagree.


    I actually broadly agree with the sentiment of the blog. Like Stephen, I think it's employers who should be taking the criticism and not men (OK, some of us are idiots but that's nothing to do with gender!).

    Abimbola Akanwo-Hood‍ - I didn't, but having just had it quick look it does seem to chime with some of what I am saying. 55% of women wouldn't want to share with parental leave, so it would be unfair to criticise their partners.63% of men who already have children would likely choose to share parental leave if they could, so again it seems unfair to criticise these people. The report seems to suggest very strongly to me that men, for the most part, are not the problem.


    The only way we will solve inequality is by being collaborative rather than divisive. I know that's part of what Abbie is trying to say, but for reasons I've already explained, I don't think telling men to "man up" is helpful.

  • David Houssein:
    Antonia Tzemanaki‍ - I just re-read the article to see whether I'd mis-judged the tone, but it still felt quite critical of men in general. I've never known "man up" to be used in the context you describe - I'm sure there are lots of men who've been on the receiving end of some pretty nasty comments and would struggle to agree with you. But I guess we just have different interpretations and will have to agree to disagree.


    I actually broadly agree with the sentiment of the blog. Like Stephen, I think it's employers who should be taking the criticism and not men (OK, some of us are idiots but that's nothing to do with gender!).

    Abimbola Akanwo-Hood‍ - I didn't, but having just had it quick look it does seem to chime with some of what I am saying. 55% of women wouldn't want to share with parental leave, so it would be unfair to criticise their partners.63% of men who already have children would likely choose to share parental leave if they could, so again it seems unfair to criticise these people. The report seems to suggest very strongly to me that men, for the most part, are not the problem.


    The only way we will solve inequality is by being collaborative rather than divisive. I know that's part of what Abbie is trying to say, but for reasons I've already explained, I don't think telling men to "man up" is helpful. 




    David: I pointed out the inluded articles (the survey result and the study) in Abbie's artcles because your intial statement:
    "David Houssein:
    I think the blog is well-intentioned, but it's also a bit unfair on some men by making all sorts of assumptions and negative sweeping statements."

    was unexpected and condensending of what I feel is a good article on a difficult and potentially divisive subject. I did not see "all sorts of assumptions and negative sweeping statements" in the article Abbie wrote.


    While I agree the argument that the term/phrase "man-up" can be emotionally wounding and, or damaging (www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Is-man-up-the-most-destructive-phrase-in-modern-culture.html), I feel it was used in the article to imply encouragement. It was a fairly balanced, well researched and argued article.

     


  • Amy Louise Anderson-Beecham:


    I have never really looked into what paternity/maternity leave and pay is offered; I understand from friends of mine that Maternity pay isn't great from some employers but not much is said regarding paternity pay. I think for both men and women it is heavily dependant upon who they work for (their company policies) and whether the worker is Salaried or Hourly paid. 


    As recently as a few weeks ago I was checking through the paternity policy at work as one of the men in my team (hourly paid) was about to become a dad for the first time and wanted to take his two weeks paternity leave. We both read through the policy and I was disgusted with the poor pay that he will get during the two weeks. At first we both thought we had read it wrong but the weekly pay he will recieve is less than what he would get paid for a 12 hour shift! He is still taking the two weeks paternity leave and we have tried to work his shift pattern so he can spend as much time at home with his new daughter as possible without him losing out on too much pay as he will need that to live, with his wife on a lower wage due to her maternity leave.




    Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP) is paid for up to 39 weeks. You get:


    • 90% of your average weekly earnings (before tax) for the first 6 weeks

    • £140 or 90% of your average weekly earnings (whichever is lower) for the next 33 weeks.

    • You can then take an additional 13 weeks of leave, which is unpaid.

    For many people, this is indeed less than they would earn for 12 hours of work (and for the last 13 weeks - this is certainly less than anyone would earn!). This is one of the lowest rates in Europe (only Ireland and Slovakia have worse maternity pay entitlement). As Abbie points out, statutory pay does not come close to covering many people's outgoings (mortgage/rent, utilities, food, council tax etc.) let alone the additional expenses that usually accompany a newborn (buggy, cot, car seat, clothes, nappies etc., etc., etc)


    It is great that you have been able to work with your employee to arrange his shifts in a helpful manner. As childcare is so expensive, I think that greater assistance like this is needed from employers in offering ongoing flexible working practices. Greater flexibility will, I think, certainly encourage a more equal division of paid work/stay-at-home child care, as parents juggle and tag-team to manage the round-the-clock caring duties with the financial responsibilities of the household. It is also worth noting that babies can't suddenly look after themselves when the first year of maternity leave is finished. Whilst SMP might not be the best, at least it is there - after a year, there is no assistance, so ongoing flexibility is needed to ensure that both parents can be there when needed for the duration of that child's young life. Greater flexibility would also ensure that there are fewer barriers to returning to work for the parent who has been the primary carer during the parental leave period. If more roles were available as a job share or on a part-time basis, I think that women would be able to continue in their chosen career more easily, rather than having to pick a new (usually low-paid) job because it fits in with the school run and because they have lost their confidence in the skills/experience they had before they were out of their chosen industry for a year (or more).


     

  • Where I work women can take up to 2 years maternity leave (after a qualifying period, 5 years I think); 6 months at full pay, 6 months at half pay or SMP (whichever is higher) and then a year at zero pay.  If they are in the pension scheme then the employer continues to make pension contributiosn so their service for pension is not impacted.  If they haven't completed the qualifying period then they get pro rata on time (so if they are half way through they can take 3 full/3 half/6 zero pay), and the qualifying period continues to accrue (so if they have 2.5 years service and take a year maternity they will come back with 3.5 years service) as do all other timeserved benefits (automatic increments, additional annual leave &c).  They also accrue annual leave (and retain any left over leave from the year they started maternity leave and if they were off for more than a year the leave year encapsulated within their maternity leave) so very often the first thing that happens when a woman comes back off maternity leave is she then goes off on annual leave to use up the leave she has accrued.


    Until the legislation around paternity leave and later shared parental leave, men got two weeks unpaid that had to be taken within the first year after birth and could only be taken in blocks of one week at least 4 weeks apart.


    Things are slightly more equal now but there is still a strong reluctance by managers to allow men to take parental leave.  I've been involved (as a rep/advisor) in two cases where a male member of staff has had a spotless record for years but after requesting and getting (only after a grievance) parental leave has found themselves facing a series of disciplinary cases on minor matters.

  • Stephen Booth:

    Where I work women can take up to 2 years maternity leave (after a qualifying period, 5 years I think); 6 months at full pay, 6 months at half pay or SMP (whichever is higher) and then a year at zero pay.  If they are in the pension scheme then the employer continues to make pension contributiosn so their service for pension is not impacted.  If they haven't completed the qualifying period then they get pro rata on time (so if they are half way through they can take 3 full/3 half/6 zero pay), and the qualifying period continues to accrue (so if they have 2.5 years service and take a year maternity they will come back with 3.5 years service) as do all other timeserved benefits (automatic increments, additional annual leave &c).  They also accrue annual leave (and retain any left over leave from the year they started maternity leave and if they were off for more than a year the leave year encapsulated within their maternity leave) so very often the first thing that happens when a woman comes back off maternity leave is she then goes off on annual leave to use up the leave she has accrued.


    Until the legislation around paternity leave and later shared parental leave, men got two weeks unpaid that had to be taken within the first year after birth and could only be taken in blocks of one week at least 4 weeks apart.


    Things are slightly more equal now but there is still a strong reluctance by managers to allow men to take parental leave.  I've been involved (as a rep/advisor) in two cases where a male member of staff has had a spotless record for years but after requesting and getting (only after a grievance) parental leave has found themselves facing a series of disciplinary cases on minor matters.




    Wow - that is a great maternity package!  I think many people would love to work for a company like this, and having this sort of a package available as a benefit must surely influence things like company loyalty, retention rates, and attracting talent in the first place.  It is a shame that the men at your company appear to have had a bit of a tougher time as some people's attitudes seem to be taking a while to catch up with the law.


    Here is an interesting account from a couple who took shared parental leave (for 3 months off at the same time) and the attitudes, experiences and feelings they encountered: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/27/shared-parental-leave-johnny-davis