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What do I expect from IET – Community - France & Paris.

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Firstly who are the IET Fr MIET members?

I joined this PEI in 1980 from Grenoble. I was on substantive leave from MoD. I decided to stay for a longer period and got married here. At that time we were the first to come over with the EU agreements of that period.

There were already ex-patriot UK people with huge benefits living here, there were the UK EU adventurers with no objectives but work was abundant, there were the first student exchanges, and some had married into French families. I did not meet any UK people who simply came here to live and work at that time.

 

Most of us found the difference between the UK and France as difficult as between the UK and China. They just did not live, eat or drink like us.

 

I was advised by the first UK settlers to just join in and enjoy myself, which I did.

I first met French culture when I organised the “entente cordiale” between the Concorde R&D groups of UK RAE and French ONERA. It was unbelievable, when the opportunity to have a job and career change came, I took up nuclear engineering in France.

 

I returned to the UK which had drastically changed – Thatcher, strikes, riots. My name  was plagiarised in my work. I had to leave the UK after my employers failed to protect me. I returned to France.

The first time every one talked of the quality of life in France, the second time it was the Iraqi wars and crisis.

 

So what do you need to work and survive in France now and how can the IET French Community help.

France is huge; it is not realistic to travel from SE or SW France for a meeting in Paris.

Maybe we need a newcomers guide such as most French towns give to new arrivals.

France is still totally different from the UK.

We have different categories of IET members who are at least engineering & technology related.

 -Ex-patriot, UK enterprise sales & marketing staff, Erasmus students, Enterprises from the UK that have delocalised with their staff, those that have married into families, entrepreneurs and SMEs in IT technology and those that now just want to work and live in France etc.

What would you advise
  • Should we have a MIET arrivals’ guide

  • Should we have guides to French language courses

  • Should we have guides to CPD in France

  • Should we give advice on French administration

  • What about the dos and don’ts of French culture.


Or should we just mind our own business and keep it to ourselves?

 

I recommend reading : Stephen Clarke – 1000 years of annoying the French and other titles and most of his references. French English history is not as taught in schools.
  •  Out of season hotels in France are cheap, maybe one or two visits with IET families or friends to E&T venues could be affordable.


And the French Community AGM & voting should be on line and at distance.

I’m retiring from E&T have fun in France

 

Give Rob McCann some help

 

John Gowman MIET (ex ITEME Grenobl 1980)

 

  • Hi John


    The IET gave the France LN committee a breakdown of where the member were around this time last year, so one thing we are looking at is write up of what has been happening in the LN over the past year and ideas for the future.  If we add this as well as a message from Rob, as the Chair, and post this on the community page we can then put out an email to all of those who have registered to receive emails highlighting the post, asking them to get involved, get in touch or let us know of anything they can suggest for activity. This would give us an indication of where any interested people are, if we can link them up and if a district structure within the main committee would work.

     

    If we get interest, then we can see where we go from there,  but this is a good initial start at reaching members and letting them know what is happening.  


    We can alter the welcome messag on the communites page to give details of how to get involved or who to contact, so another way of reaching out.


    I fully agree with your sentiment to support the organising committee and if anyone is looking to get involved or has any ideas, please get in touch.


    Thanks


    Lynsay 

    IET Community Manager
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Linsay,

    I think one of the
    problems in France is the cost of communication, do you know how
    much it costs just to drive 100km on a motorway?


    regards, 

    John

  • Dear Colleagues,

    ​I live in the Toulouse area, the IET Aerospace PN recently held a splendid technical seminar in Toulouse but we had very few attendees.  Part of the intention here was to promote the IET in France, we had been advised by the IET executive there were many IET members resident here.  The RAeS has a very vibrant local group in Toulouse probably associated to some extent by the Airbus operation there.  As the IET continues to push out internationally, perhaps there should be some consideration as to how the IET could develop its presence further across France towards meeting its professional objectives?
  • Hello John,


    The major issue the IET faces in much of Europe is member density, there used to be around 300 IET members in France, largely concentrated around Paris, Sophia Antipolis, and Toulouse.  I don't expect that to have changed a great deal but I'd be happy to be corrected.  In such circumstances in the Benelux a few years ago we approached events in two ways:
    • we fostered close (informal) co-operation with the other professional institutions, including the local ones, such that any event was widely advertised to many more people than "just" IET members

    • we took the events to the audience, rather than asking the audience to come to us; for example an event about academic publishing at a University during the lunch break, and another at the EPO immediately after work


    I hope this is not teaching Grandma to suck eggs <smile>.


    What do you have in mind with "further developing the IET presence across France"?


    Keith

  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member








    Keith,

    I have just reached 68
    and finally decided to retire, although I am still solicited for
    work, my last offers I sent to IET, I am being contacted as there
    is a real skills shortage in the UK in my field of
    work.



    Today in France,
    Grenoble is the second R&D centre; I joined ITEME from there in
    1980, Toulouse started to send the UK aircraft engineers back home
    as they could not integrate into the local communities – darts
    & cricket kept them isolated. Paris is mainly ex-patriots on
    short term stays. So the situation has changed, we are now many UK
    nationals married into local communities all over France, as well
    as some EU adventurers, so IET has to change its
    approach.



    What do you have in mind
    with "further developing the IET presence across
    France"?

    I
    have
    resigned from ECUK and the Paris Community. I have sent my ideas to
    HQ and to the new President IET Paris Community, let the new
    generation do as they feel fit.



    VIDEO conferencing and
    recorded video meetings is one idea, occasional trips to
    interesting industrial events, major industrial sites, R&D
    centres or Paris engineering shows; I have sent my ideas to HQ and
    to IET Paris.



    I think that most
    members want:-


    1.      
    Registration at
    ECUK


    2.      
    To keep in touch with
    IET


    3.      
    Social networks have
    probably replaced IET communication


    4.      
    Do not want to go to
    Paris


    5.      
    Do not want expensive gin
    & tonic cocktail parties 200km from home, France is a huge
    country.


    6.      
    To be informed of E&T
    events in their regions



    The Paris community was
    a tight knit affaire for ex IEE Ceng and there was no way to be
    involved, I was locked out for years. Now it is in new
    hands.



    It was really
    disappointing to hear that the IET President came to Paris whilst
    on an IET World tour.

    He did not consider it
    worth the effort to call a French Community "meet the President"
    meeting or even to ask how its members felt about this community,
    the NET exists now.



    Instead he went to the
    combined PEI and French Grand Ecole meeting, we were informed too
    late and if most members are like me, they are not interested in
    expensive gin& tonic dinner lectures in Paris, Too far &
    too expensive.



    It seems that our
    President has no time for ordinary members and just does not
    understand international and French affaires.

    He met Monsieur Paccard
    who is the A&M Old Boys President, who places all his selective
    men and occasional women in top jobs, blocking IET and other Grand
    Ecole applicants. This is the same as MIE in the UK (I am awaiting
    an overdue reply from Membership on this case). 

    I mentored over two
    years two sets of his master students, he came to see them and me,
    he would not hear of free competition, only his students could work
    in French industry.



    The President talked
    about promoting UK Technology in France, this blocks UK engineers
    work in French companies. It is also illegal in
    France.

    He talked about combined
    technology projects between France and the UK


    ·        
    Concorde, I worked on
    Concorde, our only communication with France were the rugby matches
    I organised, this attracted me to France. There was no Cooperation,
    the work was split at top level, like Air bus today.


    ·        
    He mentioned Fusion, JET, ITER not
    surprising, he is Deputy Dean of UCL. UCL is the only UK University
    still believing in a “Ref House of Lords Fusion Commission - pie in
    the sky dream”, His past professors went on to be Directors UKAEA,
    CCFE, JET and use IET E&T to promote their dream with no Peer
    review of their articles. I was Engineer in Charge at JET, my
    career was destroyed by these Grande Ecole Engineers.


    ·        
    He talked about Israel and
    combined Technology, - Israel sells, we buy. I worked on a Combined
    Technology Project for France (I’m British that’s Europe for you),
    I taught their Head of Nuclear R&D – Technical French, then DAD
    – how to decommission, clean-up and dismantle nuclear R&D
    Reactors and nuclear Installations, we worked incooperation with
    the IAEA. This done, we checked my work against all nuc R&D
    reactors world wide, they can all be safely dismantled with
    virtually no waste.

     

    But our President is
    above ordinary members, This is the real problem with UK PEIs and
    IET in General.

     

    This month E&T &
    Members News published articles that would make any reasonable PE
    say no thank you to UK PEIs. 

    - 3 Million PEs not UK
    registered, 

    - Women belittled and
    mocked, with only 9% interested in Eng &Tech.

    My last R&D project
    enterprise was founded by a woman. My last group had four Project
    leaders one was not a man (Colouche). We had three sister groups
    all managed by women. There is a place for women in engineering but
    not with the present ECUK and PEI direction.

     


    Engineering can be fun for
    all; why not call for some long week-end trips in France (IET staff
    have come along, so why not members and not male MIETs). I
    suggested a revue, and was publicly pocked by a past IEE Fr Com
    President.

     

    Keith; France is not
    Beneluxe, every country in Europe has its traditions and
    principles, your ideas are good but are MIETs in France interested
    in anything other than titles?

     

    I am now stepping out of
    this communication.



    Anyone interested
    helping the French Communities new President by organising an
    event? Or on how to communicate in France.

     

    John
    G

    Ingénieur
    Chercheur retired - MIET





    Garanti sans
    virus. www.avg.com







  • John (Turton), I sympathise with your disappointment. I'm not sure how many members the IET actually has in the Toulouse area but I’m pretty sure it is far fewer than the RAeS. However, for IET members to attend such a meeting they do need to be informed about it and this sort of communication with members has been a real problem for quite some time now. I am signed up to receive information about events in France but your post was the first I heard of this meeting.

    On the other hand, I’m not sure just how much the IET will “continue to push out internationally” as I fear that Brexit will put an end to the mobility of IET members. Membership of the European Union was key to the creation of IET poles in many countries as a result of increased mobility. In fact, many moons ago when I presented the history of the IEE in France, the presentation started with General de Gaulle’s death in 1970. Until that time, the UK’s path to Europe was blocked and IEE members in Paris were lucky to be able to organise a dinner every other year. After the UK’s accession to the EU, the IEE French Centre came into being in 1990 and has held meetings in many places across a country that is four times the size of England. These “non-Paris-centric” meetings depended heavily on local members in their organisation in the days when the local organisation had access to membership data and could easily get in touch with other members in the provinces. Data protection has put a stop to that, effectively putting an end to any geographical dimension to events. However, if you wanted to offer a bit of your time to the French LN I’m sure this would be much appreciated.

  • I'd support pretty much all Mike has said, although I'd add that (in my view) it is the IET's interpretation / implementation of the Data Protection Act which has contributed to the problem, rather than the DPA itself.  I cannot believe that the Data Protection Officer could have any problem with an LN officer maintaining a database of contact details freely given to the LN by members with the specific purpose of remaining in contact with the LN.


    I suggest also that the IET's international objectives are more focused on India and China, Europe qualifies at best for a watching brief.  The IET has limited resources (money, staff, volunteer time and effort, ...) and it has to use them where it believes it can have the greatest impact.


    Referring to John's post:

    I think that most members want:-


    1.       Registration at ECUK - why? to what extent is this recognised / valued in Europe?


    2.       To keep in touch with IET - why?


    3.       Social networks have probably replaced IET communication - yes


    4.       Do not want to go to Paris - agreed


    5.       Do not want expensive gin & tonic cocktail parties 200km from home, France is a huge country - agreed


    6.       To be informed of E&T events in their regions - agreed, which brings us back to Mike's post




    But our President is above ordinary members, This is the real problem with UK PEIs and IET in General.



    I disgree completely.  I have had the pleasure of working closely with a number of IET Presidents and I can say from personal experience that those with whom I have worked cared very much about the ordinary member.


    France is not Beneluxe, every country in Europe has its traditions and principles, your ideas are good but are MIETs in France interested in anything other than titles?



    I'm aware of that, John.  My company was French and I have been closely connected to France for the last 25 years or so, for the last six I have lived in France full time.  I do not think that any member remains a member for the "titles", with the possible exception of maintaining CEng as a sort of insurance policy "in case".  Such titles are not recognised in France.


    My suggestions were intended to underline that the IET is not only about looking after its members, rather its raison d'être is to spread / share knowledge widely.  The success of an event is not measured by how many IET members attend but by how many non-members attend and, if it's difficult to get our message across to members, it's a thousand times more of a challenge to reach non-members.  Which is why collaboration with other professional bodies, educational establishments, business, and (local) government can be helpful.


    Keith

  • Hi all

    Actually there is a DPA problem with the chairman or secretary holding a list of members' details: it is not allowed, and that's why I no longer have a list. However, where the IET goes wrong in my opinion, and, according to my reading of their own course, is that the registration on the IET French Network community page should automatically register you to receive notifications, but give you the option to opt out (remove the tick if you don't want to be emailed). This is what every other group, association or company I am registered with does. Instead, the IET choose not even to inform new registrees (!?) that they must register for notifications if they want to get information from us. As a result, people don't get notified of events, and when I answer later queries, I get the response "I didn't know I had to register again".


    Concerning activities, I can only point to our experience to date. In the last couple of months we tried to launch a joint event with Spain for a weekend meeting in Toulouse. Only 12 people replied to the EOI notice so the visit was not feasible and had to be cancelled. At the (excellent) IET conference on Automated Vehicles in Paris a couple of years ago only 2 French IET members (both committee) attended; the same with a smaller evening event we held on th subject with the CE group. At a joint meeting with ParisTech on submarine telecommunications a few years ago, only 1 person from the IET came (me). On the other hand, our weekend in St.Nazaire in 2015 was well attended by both IET and ICE members. The CERN weekend was also well-attended by both IET and ICE members. It seems, then, that only weekend visits generate interest, and then its pretty much the retired members who attend. Yes, France is a big country, but it hasn't stopped me travelling from Paris to Toulouse, Geneva, Mulhouse, Cadarache, Warsaw, Lisbon and others for engineering institution meetings.


    In response to one of John's comments, the IET president was invited to our joint associations annual dinner, and attended. It was embarassing (to me at least) that so few IET members came.

    Yes, the ECUK registration has very little relevance in France, but increasing numbers of French engineers want to work abroad, where French alumni membership has little relevance, unless you are working for a French company: CEng accreditation could be useful for such people, although Brexit may change this. 


    I'm not sure Brexit will change international mobility much: the business cases usually outweigh political considerations. But my experience is that getting UK people to get out of their country is always an uphill stuggle, both with our own staff and more especially with customers, compared to other nationalities with which I have had dealings. (Big generalisation I accept).


    There are positive things the IET can do in France, such as education initiatives like Lego challenge, PATW and others, but without support from the active members in France, it ain't going to happen IMHO.


    Sorry if this comes across as a negative rant, but my point is: ask not what the IET can do for you, but what you can do for the IET. (with apologies)


    BR

    Phil

  • An extraterrestrial engineer, if shown the organisation of the UK engineering institutions in France, would not believe it. A small member base, divided further by discipline, and each subdivision provided with a full set of committee members, each organising its own events and having its own, but different funding.


    What do I expect from the IET in France?


    I would expect it to suggest a total integration of at least the main disciplines; Electrical, Mechanical, Civil and Aeronautical. There is already a strong semi-formal liaison between the Electricals and the Civils - why not formalise it, include the other institutions and create a multi-disciplined "Engineers in France"?


    Today's engineering projects are usually multi-disciplined anyway - why not reflect this with a new, more efficient organisation with a large member base that can offer events across the full spectrum of engineering. Engineers are inquisitive beasts by nature and often engineering from the "other side of the fence" is more appealing for lectures and visits.


    I've attempted to do some partial integration with a couple of "Engineers of South-West France" groups on Yahoo and Facebook - but such amateur initiatives can only go so far without Institution support.


    I recognise that such a move would put a number of noses out of joint - but surely engineers would recognise that the larger member base and economies of scale are more important than one's ego?
  • Exactly, Ian!


    It's probably asking too much to have any formal sort of "Engineers in France" grouping (why not "Engineers in Europe"?), but the informal sort can work brilliantly.


    There was a chap by the name of Helmer in the Benelux who made pretty much the same points ten years ago, we took it on board and formed an informal collaboration of all the PEIs (The Helmer Initiative!), including the local ones.  No, it wasn't easy, it requires good will on all sides, but it delivered value, well worth the effort.


    Keith