Solar Energy Systems installation UK - lack of skills

As I researched Solar Energy systems for over a year now I discovered how little I understood the dangerous realities of Solar installations even though powered at ELV level <50Vdc.  The difference being that you are dealing with a constant current of 50 - 100's A dc.  Average Joe, maybe used to Auto/Truck 12/24Vdc  systems probably sees the system as safe - you dont get a shock (boat owners will disagree).  So the hazards of installing a dc distribution system  within a domestic house and the potential to cause disastrous fires are totally underestimated.  Even the average tradesman electrician will not have sufficient training in such matters in his CPD scheme.

To make matters worse, as a result of a question by a neighbour who want to suggest to his lad that he follow an Electrician apprenticeship, I discovered that my area (SE UK) has no regular Technical College Route pursuing CnG courses.  Apprenticeships are very rare and as a rule focus on training junior managers. 

In short, a young person cannot readily find his way in to becoming and electrical tradesman ( I have to make a distinction between the concept of a Technician here)

When you aggregate the complete installation identifying all physical components, the SLD suddenly becomes quite complex.  ie Going from Panel Arrays > optomisers > cables > marshalling boxes > Fuse links > Isolators > Master Circuit Breaker > Inverter (s) > Battery Bank > Domestic Consumer Unit > Grid resale meter > Master Isolator > standby generator > Auto Transfer Switch, Control and monitoring systems, Emergency shutdown scheme.

When you seen the numerous wannabee hopefuls going offgrid and often their lack of formal technical training they dont realise how dangerous their rough and ready installation is

I can post links to many sources of my concern here if there is sufficient interest

Robin 

Parents
  • In the UK where we do not have such dry desert grass I show the Scouts electric fire starting with a brillo pad and char-cloth to get the kindling going. This also means you do not need anything like as much current, a few alkaline D cells will ignite the fine iron wire at a push. As a fire starter, it is only ever a novelty, and the flint and steel or matches are much preferred if you are in a hurry, but it still makes a bit of an 'ooh' demo to those who have not seen it before. I try to make a point of mentioning about not putting bare terminal batteries loose in your pocket at the same time.

    I also point out that a standard Mars bar, (220 calories. = 924kJ), a 180gram small stick of dynamite (~ 1MJ) compare, and a lantern battery made of 4 D cells (each celll 25 Watt- hours = 3600*25=90kJ ) is about 1/3 of that, but the example is to show the error of thinking that way - the key is how fast you get the energy out, in the case of the bar, over hours by digestion, the battery over tens of seconds to minutes and the dynamite in tens of microseconds.

    Mike.

  • Mike the Magician at a kids party.  What we have here on this OP is big kids encouraged by the Wicked Witch (social media, ill informed ego-trippers on YT, malicious misinformation etc) encouraging bigger kids to play with fireworks (lion batteries, dc heavy current installations etc) and become a tribe of opinionated "techies" who doesnt do sums and believes that "suck it and see" is the way to go.

    Who cares about 'Ome's Law  Watts the fuss about?  Look at the huge tribe of Big Kid Arduino dabblers who fool themselves into thinking  they are smart when they make leds twinkle.  Put them in the real world for employment and you find them unemployable because they werent infused with a sense of  discipline from  formal technical  training when they were young and are too old to change their self taught  mindset.. 

    FWIW I have to chuckle to myself cos I sound like an advocate for National Service.

    So back to my bench I have testing to do.

    OBTW

    Notice some things about these YT vids

    a) They feature a splash of the Presenter - "in your face"

    b) They are ca 25 - 35mins long

    c)  Their content could be said in <5mins

    d) They a filled with crafted teasing so you have to watch right thru

    e) Their  length allows for 3+ sponsor ad slots

    f)  They are optimised to beg for "Subscribe " clicks (which generates Sponsors' $$$ income"

    g  At the end you have wasted a morning on a half dozen of these and conclude its 99% rubbish.

    It turns you into a "Grumpy Old Man"

  • I take the Scout leading quite seriously actually and devote much of what would otherwise be my free time to it - I see modern society as becoming very brittle and people unable to handle it if any one thing in the ever longer chain fails, and making sure youngsters know how to use matches safely, how to cook a decent breakfast lunch and dinner from scratch, the basics of first aid, how to read a map and so on I see as generally useful skills to pass on. I am aware that some see the Scouts as a baby sitting service, and some groups may be run like that, my troop is not.


    I agree with you on the infuriating youtube videos and tend to ignore them. I prefer the ones that are just real people, and there are some very good ones, especially for mechanical engineering and bushcraft - but a great many that are just cash cow dross as you indicate.  Electrically I prefer things like the likes of John Ward for electrical, and BigClive's videos for the lets look inside a whatever it is - as neither are like that.

    Mike

  • Indeed Big Clive is a tonic https://www.youtube.com/@bigclivedotcom . (1Million fans) A leccie specialising in fairgrounds and local Authority street lighting carnival lights events etc.  10 years if de-constructing electrical Cheap Charlie gadgets and some tongue in cheeky stuff and many quite dangerous and should be banned.

    A notable exposure is the flagrant abuse by CC of the EU CE self certifying system (fake CE stamp meaning China Export)  ggle it.

    FWIW here are some other sites I consider offer valuable enlightenment (no affiliationBTW)

    https://www.youtube.com/@JulianIlett

    J does teardowns particulary of LiB SiB techonology, solar system etc from of more technical angle 200k fans

    https://www.cruisersforum.com/ an unlikely  source for electrical dc systems afloat - decades of experience, also links to ABYC and its mandatory electrical regs for boats and formal inspections (no sign off , no insurance, no mooring!!!!!!!)

    https://www.youtube.com/@OffGridGarageAustralia/search (80k) Andy in OZ going 7+ years  former IT Tech who specilises in Lithium power banks systems BMS etc.  Salutary to note his casual approach to electrical installation design - tbh  regs have tightened up considerably over the years and Solar installation need a qualified State employed Inspector to sign off on installation or you dont get a permit to operate   100's of vids with genuine trials and testing but newer vids, he has become rather too sponsor supported (which he does disclose) but Im sure he uses any $$$$ he gains to support the costs of his extremely time consuming work - he is a legend.

    https://www.youtube.com/@HBPowerwall/videos 600k fans Pete has being banging on repurposing old laptop batteries he got for free starting 10 years ago.  A self confessed technical numpty who doesnt do sums  but he started out 10 years ago collecting free laptop battery packs and fumbled his way through the years making all manner of untutored illiterate techie mistakes and to his credit he owned up to them as he found work-arounds with help from his fans' comments.  Although his naive approach was obvious he had quite a few disasters and near misses.  His 600+ short humble vids were honest , untainted by sponsorship and amazing time consuming persistence.  He is a true legend and gave up battery building 3 years ago as technology had moved on so much and old battery packs were no longer available.

    You have to beware of Solar Forums as some of them are heavily moderated by sponsorship (not always disclosed) - for example trying to discuss the proprietary control over swtichgear and fuses - for dc work - such a lot of ignorance here)

    Anyway - hope it adds to our Knowledge Base

    Robin

  • links to ABYC and its mandatory electrical regs for boats and formal inspections (no sign off , no insurance, no mooring!!!!!!!)

    Just be aware that things aren't universal - that may be true in the US but in the UK the standard for small craft wiring seems to be somewhere between out of date and non-existent - and I've never heard of anyone being refused a mooring as a result.

      - Andy.

  • Check for yourself

    https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2013/june/do-i-need-boat-insurance

    I quoted the marine sites as they have decades of experience with dc storage  systems and more recently use of Lion battery banks.  They take fire aboard very seriously and have UL certified EE Inspectors to sign off a craft for insirance purposes

  • Check for yourself

    https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2013/june/do-i-need-boat-insurance

    er, yes, that's a US, not UK site isn't it?

       - Andy.

  • Yes thats my whole point since OP, we have a very slapdash approach to domestic Solar dc distribution systems in UK vs USA and OZ and no real way to educate young engineers accordingly (or even domestic Leccies)

    A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

  • A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

    Indeed - and perhaps YouTube doesn't help with that. Regulatory wise, for domestic buildings and their curtilages though, there is part P of the building regs (which  covers ELV as well as LV, DC as well as AC) to comply with, which demands BS 7671 compliance, which in turn demands competence in design, installation and I&T.

      - Andy.

Reply
  • A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

    Indeed - and perhaps YouTube doesn't help with that. Regulatory wise, for domestic buildings and their curtilages though, there is part P of the building regs (which  covers ELV as well as LV, DC as well as AC) to comply with, which demands BS 7671 compliance, which in turn demands competence in design, installation and I&T.

      - Andy.

Children
  • Hi,

    Yes, I was just having a look at Part P to see how it would cover this - I guess it's notifiable as "the installation of a new circuit", have I got that right?

    Thanks,

    Andy